r/exmuslim Mar 26 '26

(News) We exist… around the world: 500 ExMuslim stories mubaraaaaaak! 🥳🥳🥳

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315 Upvotes

Hi community! 🥰

Taking inspiration from QueeringtheMap.com, I helped create exmuslim.me with a small team of ExMuslims last year. We launched the first ever global map of exmuslim stories as part of ExMuslim Month in December 2025.

I’m so incredibly thrilled to share that we now have 500 exmuslim stories from 233 cities and 60 countries! 🥳🥳🥳

📊 59% identify as atheists, 26% agnostic

🇪🇬 Read the 500th story from Egypt

🤗 Thank you to everyone who has shared their story already!

🤍 Share yours and help ExMuslims on their journey out of Islam: https://exmuslim.me/

Cheers! 🥂

Sammy aka Haram Doodles


r/exmuslim Jun 03 '24

(Advice/Help) Exmuslim Guide to Living in the Closet and Coming Out.

277 Upvotes

Hello. Upon request, I've been asked to turn a comment I made into a post so that it can be a resource for more people. This post is a collection of advice I've given out about how to handle your life as a closeted exmuslim and how you'll come out in the future. It is largely based on my experience but also from what I've seen from others in this subreddit.

Introduction

So you've left Islam. You've delved through arguments, the apologetics and the bullshit and you've come to the conclusion that you no longer believe in Islam. And you may have also reached an alternative philosophical outlook on life that you can believe in.

But what now? You may have left Islam, but have you left the Muslim world? One of the most common misconceptions outsiders have is that since exmuslims are no longer Muslims, they no longer live in the Muslim world. This is painfully naive - in reality many exmuslims are closeted due to young age and financial dependency and/or live in Islamist countries or societies that enforce Islamic values. In fear of social stigma or even violence, exmuslims have to contend with closeted lives even after leaving Islam. So how do you deal with it?

Goal

The best time to come out to family is in your own home, over a dinner you paid for, alongside people who support you. That takes a lot of preparation and it means doing what you can to live your life as best as you can whilst working towards independence.

This basically means that a lot of what helps you come out of the closet will depend heavily on how well you prepared for it, so you will need to make the most of your closeted life. You may not be able to stop the shitstorm but you can at least prepare yourself to weather it. Here are some tips to achieve that goal (in no particular order)

1) Don't meander in life due to a lack of decision making skills.

Probably one of the worst mistakes I made was not realise I was an exmuslim sooner. As a result I had barely any time to prepare for when the inevitable happened and I was forced to come out. I spent a lot of my life meandering, trying to reconcile the irreconcilable, and trying to be a Muslim when I knew my values didn't align with it. I didn't really have much of a concept of exmuslims, but if I had been smarter I would have figured it out. I now tell people in a similar position that it's fine to take your time but don't take too long. Half arsing two very different cultures will leave you a loser in both.

Similarly whilst planning for independence can be scary, don’t let it frighten you into inaction. The following is a passage from this article about decision making:

Research from the 1990s led by the US psychologist Thomas Gilovich provides further evidence for why it can be shortsighted to kick a difficult decision down the road. Gilovich and his team showed that although, in the short term, people experience more regret from ‘errors of commission’ (taking an action that leads to a disappointing outcome), in the long term it is actually ‘errors of omission’ that lead to more regret – that is, disappointing outcomes that arise from not taking an action.

When taking the time to make decisions and plans, don’t underestimate how effective it can be to map out your options on an excel spreadsheet. When I had to decide whether I should come out or not, I actually made a spreadsheet listing out my options, what they would result in and what the impact would be. Actually having it written down to look at really put things into perspective. We waste a lot of our time keeping it in our heads, which forces us to recalculate everything from scratch every time we revisit our thoughts. But the more that is mapped out, the less you have to recalculate and the more you can focus on evaluation and further planning.

2) Study, career and finances.

Your studies/career is almost always your best ticket out of your toxic situation, and the one thing to prioritise the most. If you’re young, do whatever you can to ensure that you can get into further education away from home. Even if it means spending all your time at a local library. If you suspect that your parents would be against you going to a university away from home, aim for a placement at the most prestigious university you can aim for so your parents would look worse for rejecting it. The quickest and most effective way in achieving long term independence is through good studies/career.

3) Do not telegraph irreligiosity whilst being closeted.

This is particularly important for younger exmuslims because they telegraph to their parents in ways they would just not understand until they see it for themselves when they're older. Try your best to meet the religious obligations expected from your family. The more you slip, the more they will monitor you and the more difficult it will be to do the things you need to do discreetly when the time comes.

Unfortunately for girls, this usually means that wearing the hijab is a necessity and it’s inadvisable to try and get out of. (However, that subject matter is not my forte: prioritise advice from exmuslim women such as from faithlesshijabi.org)

4) Sometimes you may need to go above and beyond.

If you get the impression that your family is beginning to catch onto your apostasy then it's likely that they have and you may need to reverse that impression.

One way to do that would be to start getting books on Islam and not just for show. My advice would be to get books on Islamic history because that's the least boring stuff. Or better yet, just get whatever unapologetic salafi hate crime you can get your hands on so you can entertain yourself with how fucked up it is. Or get an annotated Qur'an like the Study Qur'an. Do something to ease their suspicions.

What book you get depends on what kind of message you want to telegraph to your parents. If you want to telegraph a message then it will need to be a paper book and not an e-book. Something that you can lay around in your room and that you know they'll see. That means you're restricted to what you can get from your local library or Masjid. Also depends on what interests you because you'll have to actually read and demonstrate you learnt from it if you want send the best message you can. If you want purely what Muslims write about Islamic history, you can check out works like The Sealed Nectar or works by al-Sallabi. If you want something a little more academic, but not something that would rouse suspicion then check out university press works like this, this, this or this. If you want something a bit more relevant to contemporary Muslim world then there books like this.

But you may find that your best bet is to just see what your local Masjid might have and see what tickles your fancy.

5) Actually coming out is usually a shitstorm.

Be prepared for lots of sobbing, guilt tripping and an inability to respect your beliefs and boundaries. Learn techniques like the Broken Record Technique to establish boundaries. Know what you have to say when they inevitably tell you to speak to a scholar - you don't have to eat the whole apple to know it's rotten. You know all that you need to know about Islam and you know even more about the world outside of Islam to put it into context.

Steel yourself with months and months of your family sending you bad dawagandist videos through WhatsApp trying to bring you back. You may have to spend months beating their attempts and going to toe to toe with them without mercy before they’re finally willing to relent and get off your back. Even then don’t expect them to relent entirely. There will always be some micro aggressions that they will resort to, like playing religious videos loudly in your vicinity. The most you can do in those circumstances is reduce contact with them as much as possible. At this point you would hopefully already be independent from them.

6) Do not feel guilt.

As an exmuslim, you will go through a lot of guilt. Whilst this does show you are human, you need to forget about guilt: you are not responsible for your parents' failure to be reasonable, not even your mother. They take responsibility for the social stigma and oppressive life they choose to live in and perpetuate. You get nothing out of that guilt. It's completely pointless and ultimately counterproductive. You can't set yourself on fire to make others warm and you gain no recognition from martyrizing yourself. Do not feel guilt for what you have to do to have a completely reasonable life. The only ones to blame are those who forced you into it.

Don't underestimate parents either. They will use guilt against you. Give them an inch and they will take a mile. They very often bring up their health problems as a weapon against you. Don't fall for it. It only affects them because they choose to let it affect them. They can choose to be reasonable. You have to respect their autonomy and let them deal with the consequences of their own ways.

7) Don't come out too soon thinking it's a release.

I come across a lot of exmuslim kids who think coming out will help explain to their religious parents why they don't want to wear the hijab or do other religious things. But the likelihood is more that those same parents will react extremely poorly and restrict your freedom even more, making it more difficult to achieve long term independence.

There's also the mistake in assuming that coming out will lead to being disowned in the vain hope that you get an quick clean break that takes all the responsibility from you. For some exmuslims this does actually work out, but for a lot of others it's miscalculated. My family didn't disown me, I still had to deal with months of my family being insufferable manipulators and the responsibility was still on me to separate from them. And for women it can be much worse.

Ultimately, if you are financially dependent on your family then coming out early will very typically result in your family using that leverage against you and making your life worse. I've seen stories of exmuslims who thought their family was better and badly miscalculated - be mindful of that.

8) Don’t panic too much if they find out.

Some exmuslims get found out, sometimes because of a snitch in the family or sometimes because they just weren’t convincing enough. Don’t panic – Muslims can be pretty damn deluded about their faith and your family will want to believe that you can come back very easily because according to them Islam is just common sense and most disbelievers are just silly and ignorant. Try to do your best to convince them as per Point 4. If it’s because you did something haram, blasphemous or otherwise worthy of takfir, try to act like it was because you were a misguided Quranist or progressive Muslim. They will still retain suspicion but it’s still better than the alternative.

However, if you’re at the point of no return and you know you can’t convince them then now is the time to make calls to any secular friends you have, ask for support and maybe even shelter.

Also for Western exmuslims, make sure to act quickly if you suspect that your parents want to send you abroad and trap you in your country of ethnic origin. Sadly some parents will go to these lengths. Do not go, no matter the cost. Find organisations willing to advise, such as those listed in Point 10. Hide your passport if you have to. Note down the contact details of your embassy in that country just in case.

9) Go no contact if you fear abuse.

Actually think about whether it's even wise for you to come out in any circumstance. Do you suspect that there could be violence or abuse? If so then you have absolutely no need to go through this stupid bullshit. Leave and don't look back. If your parents couldn't give you safe environment to even come out about different beliefs then they are not worth the time. As per Point 6 - You have to respect their autonomy and let them deal with the consequences of their own ways. This is particularly pertinent for those who live in a predominantly Muslim countries. They have a very real reason to fear persecution and absolutely do not need to risk their own lives for the sake of their parents.

10) Make use of organisations and resources.

Look into secular organisations like recoveringfromreligion.org, faithlesshijabi.org and faithtofaithless.com. Look into women's charities in your area like womensaid.org.uk or karmanirvana.org.uk (UK examples). Look into LGBT charities like rainbowrailroad.org. If you have secular school counsellors and friends then talk to them. Get advice from adults you can absolutely trust.

Note: On the flip side don't take risks with people you can’t be sure of. You may be tempted to come out to your Muslim friend, but I've seen plenty of stories of exmuslims who heavily regret doing so.

There are also informal exmuslim groups on other social media platforms such as Facebook or Discord, but be careful about how much information you share and especially be wary of private messaging.

11) You may have to leave the country.

This is particularly the case for exmuslims living in predominantly Muslim countries. Unfortunately, I don't have any real world experience to offer here but you may be able to find localised advice by digging around. For example sites like wearesaudis.net might have some information (but you'll need a VPN to access this one. If you don't know what a VPN is here's an explanation).

Are you multilingual? If you need money but working is restricted to you then you can try becoming an online language tutor on sites like italki.com (scroll to the bottom). This post and related subreddits like r/WorkOnline may help.

Note: some exmuslims in Muslim countries fall for the doomscrolling hyperbole and think Europe is “doomed” with too many Muslims. They have a tendency of asking which country is best to migrate to as an exmuslim to avoid Islam. Please ignore the doomsayers and prioritise the country you choose based on ease of access and career opportunities. As long as it is a secular country, you can worry about avoiding Islam later.

Final stuff

Shout out to Imtiaz Shams who inspired me to make this list of tips. He has his own YouTube Channel here and plans to make his own video on this subject matter so watch out for that. On a side note, I also recommend TheraminTrees YouTube Channel who delves a lot into toxic dysfunctional families from the perspective of a therapist. A lot of his content helps in dealing with the emotional impact of leaving religion and dealing with a religious family. And finally, thank you to the moderators of r/exmuslim who suggested I make this into a post. I wound up adding a lot more content lol.

I will end this post with a list of subreddits that may help you on your journey leaving Islam:

Ex related subreddits

Other Useful Subreddits


r/exmuslim 57m ago

(Question/Discussion) If the hijab is to stop lust then why do children wear them?

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Upvotes

r/exmuslim 6h ago

(Rant) 🤬 Warning from an Egyptian: Islam is fundamentally evil, people in the west need to hear this

217 Upvotes

My family comes from Egypt, a land colonized by Arabs. My father is an exmuslim scholar and exnassirist who spent 1 year in prison after leaving Islam but got saved by the pressures of the Bush Administration and was able to immigrate to Europe shortly after. He has taught me a lot about the dangers of Islam and I want to share this perspective with a western audience.

What I most often see in online discussions about Islam is people criticizing individual verse from Quran or Hadiths such as the ones about child marriage. All of these points are absolutely valid and I love to see them being discussed and Muslims being held accountable.
However, I think most people are missing a much more fundamental question. Islam is, ontologically, incompatible with any other form of government (doesn’t actually matter whether it’s western or not): Shari’a is not simply a personal moral code or a set of guidelines for religious rituals. It is a comprehensive legal and political system designed to regulate every sphere of public and private life.
This fundamental doctrine finds its roots in the concept of Hakimiyya, which is the absolute sovereignty of God over legal and legislative matters. Under this framework, law cannot originate from human will, nor can it be amended by popular vote; it emanates exclusively from divine revelation.

What this means is that a constitutional democracy, such as the American one, cannot exist in Islam because it would be considered blasphemy. Why? Because if you say “We the people want to emanate this law ” you are basically taking the role of Allah in emanating rules which is a major sin (shirk).

So-called "moderate" or "cultural" Muslims certainly exist as individuals who choose to live peacefully in secular societies, but they are operating in direct opposition to the core jurisprudence of their own faith. They are not presenting a reformed version of Islamic theology; they are simply choosing not to practice its political mandates. Calling someone a "moderate Muslim" ignores the fact that the underlying doctrine itself remains completely un-moderated.
Western constitutionalism wasn't achieved simply by asking Christians to be nicer or more tolerant. It required centuries-long intellectual revolution that stripped divine revelation of its direct authority over civil law.
For Islam to ever truly reconcile with democratic constitutions, a similar theological shift would have to happen. Islamic jurisprudence would need to downgrade Sharia from a divine statute book meant for state enforcement to a purely personal, ethical guide. But until orthodox theology officially separates divine morality from human legal authority, the tension won't go away.
That is why political Islam isn't just a minor cultural friction point. if we leave this idea unchecked, its fundamental rejection of human-made law makes it one of the single greatest threats not just to Western democracies, but to free societies everywhere.

I think every exmuslim who has any knowledge of what islam actually teaches needs to say these sort of things out loud because the west is falling in the trap of "moderate islam" while ignoring its fundamental tenants and I find the situation to be very alarming. Leaving these fundamental concepts unchecked remains one of the single greatest long-term challenges to democracy worldwide


r/exmuslim 4h ago

(Question/Discussion) Anyone else just waiting for her to finally leave? She is SO close to getting it.

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122 Upvotes

@ayahsvoice on tiktok

Bless her she is SO CLOSE to getting it. Islam IS evil. I wish she'd just wake up already. Deciding to become a quranist/sufi/liberalist/whatever because of the blatant violence, abuse, pedophilia and inhumanity of the mainstream islam is just the step before leaving it completely, because you know deep down in your heart that the problem isn't sunnism or shi'ism or culture. It's islam itself. They're all reading the same book.


r/exmuslim 2h ago

(Question/Discussion) arabs and Muslims reacted and shamed the west for epstein files but their prophet is pedophile too😂

34 Upvotes

.


r/exmuslim 16h ago

(Rant) 🤬 As an Ex-Muslim, This Is How I See the Pick-Me Girls from My Country (Belgium) Who Convert to Islam for boys

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435 Upvotes

All this just to join a cult and please their Muslim boyfriends. 🤡🤡🤡

Not to mention that, as converts, they didn't grow up in Muslim families and therefore haven't experienced oppression because of Islam firsthand. Yet they mock and demonize women who have suffered terribly because of this religion and the religious fanaticism of their families. They also go out of their way to rationalize what's happening in Afghanistan.

This happens more often than you might think, and it's disgusting.


r/exmuslim 10h ago

(Question/Discussion) Earth2khadijah should just leave Islam at this point

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72 Upvotes

r/exmuslim 8h ago

(Question/Discussion) Christians posting on this subreddit is so ironic.

39 Upvotes

It's so ironic and delusional when Christians talk about Muslims like they aren't basically the same thing. Both believe in a sky baba, both are delusional as shit, both scare their kids using hell. Both have horrible books, Both are man made. Its embarrassing, like we aren't on your side either kick rocks bud


r/exmuslim 18h ago

(Fun@Fundies) 💩 Craving a fatwa today.

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233 Upvotes

and some beer next to it ^_^


r/exmuslim 4h ago

(Question/Discussion) Many Muslims are terrible people

16 Upvotes

For the sake of not generalizing the majority I won’t write “most”, even though it probably is. A lot of this list will be similar to other religious people’s traits, but some points will be fairly unique to Muslims. The list gets more interesting at the end.

They believe:

• People will go to hell for not believing in Islam.

• You must obey your parents. ((Parents’ rights are placed above children’s. When children are abused Muslims are quick to make excuses for parents, “it’s their first time living”, “we must have patience”. But when it’s a child retaliating, they are shamed.))

• Most of them pretend they care about being a good person but they don’t actually do self work to become better people. ((They believe their religion is what will make them better people.))

• They portray Islam and Muslims better especially when there is someone who is interested in Islam, or even they’re not, they will still pretend to hopefully get them to convert.

• They’re so closed minded.

((I used a verse from the quran talking about the blind, dumb, and deaf (disbelievers) to describe Muslim women who believe they’re queens even though their rights are of the second class type, and a woman said to me “you’re misinterpreting it”. Yes, sure, I definitely thought the quran was talking about Muslim women being blind, deaf and dumb (!) No, I’m obviously just using words that happen to be in your book. At least the Bible is seen as a piece of literature that can be quoted by anyone. Hell, it’s had such an impact on language and so much more, and I say this as an atheist. But for them, the Quran is simply an authority book.))

• They pretend they have a great deal of empathy, but where their book stops, they stop. ((Their empathy is very conditional as their book has taught them, and there are many conditions. Just look at the expectations placed on any average Muslim child, or how a Muslim woman is treated by the community when she takes off her hijab. The only people that defend her are brainwashed people who don’t know that shame is what Islam thrives on.))

• They pick and choose what causes to support.
((Always “Free Palestine”, rarely “Free Sudan” and more. Even if they do start supporting Sudan (another Muslim country), as a collective they never call out the injustices happening in the west, where many of them live. For example, many of them live in America where ICE is targeting people of colour, mainly non Muslims. But have you heard any uproar from people who apparently are following Islam, this amazing, justice upholding religion? No! They continue with “Free Palestine” because this is their hierarchy when it comes to the conflict in the world:

Muslim Arabs
Muslims
Non Muslims

I guarantee you these Arabs wouldn’t give a shit if the same kind of thing was happening in Congo. Actually, wait, we know they don’t. Racism is so embedded in their culture, why should I advocate for their people? What makes their people special over all the others’ suffering?

Didn’t Jews also suffer by the hands of Muslims for centuries? It doesn’t make the conflict right or the hardcore bombing Israel is doing, but let’s be so real with ourselves. If the Muslims had the same power, they would be doing the same shit. They literally have a whole hadith talking about when it’s closer to the “day of judgement” and they’ll be able to kill all the Jews in a war.))

• Leading on, most of them have biases or straight up prejudice, and discriminatory ideas and don’t care enough to work on them. To name a few:

- anti semitism,

- racism especially against black people (but there’s also a hierarchy that places Arabs at the top, above Asians especially South Asians),

- misogyny (they say “it’s just the way it is”, while “the way it is” is why women are suffering in countries where their Muslim men have more power to enforce how it’s supposed to be),

- colonialist, supremacist and cultish ideology while pretending they are solely victims
((Most of them deny that cultures were destroyed because of the Islamic conquest. Most of them believe Muslims are better people than others, and agree with the sharia law that makes non Muslims 2nd class citizens. Most of them will call you an Islamophobe, a tool of silencing, when you try to criticise their religion, or simply say the truth about their communities.

Ironically, they make fun of Jews for calling people, especially Muslims, anti-semites “for no reason”, when in reality they’re actually closer to the money than Muslims are when they say us ex Muslims, or anyone who dares to criticise their precious religion, are Islamophobes. Us people criticising Islam don’t have a code that tells us to, we do so out of our own will and realisations. They literally have a code in their scripture and traditions telling them how terrible Jews are.))


r/exmuslim 3h ago

(Question/Discussion) If Muslim women wear the hijab to keep their beauty to themselves, why then wear makeup? Why the public social media accounts?

12 Upvotes

Surely, wearing makeup whilst posting on Tik Tok is far more attention-seeking, than just leaving your house with the natural hair on your head?!


r/exmuslim 3h ago

(Rant) 🤬 Muslims on this sub

11 Upvotes

Am i the only one that’s noticing there are muslims on this sub. Like yesterday i saw a reddit of a muslim on this sub saying we say the same things that have already been refuted and we’re scared to debate. Honestly the obsession from these lot is insane they’re so mad that islam continues to decrease in number. If the apostasy rule didn’t exist islam may not even be a thing anymore lol.


r/exmuslim 2h ago

(Question/Discussion) Finding a partner after leaving islam

10 Upvotes

I’m a 21 year old guy who has left islam many months ago. One issue i have is how am i gonna find a partner because ideally i want a woman who’s also non religious but my background is very heavily muslim so that’s unlikely. Let me know how you’d go about it


r/exmuslim 11h ago

(Question/Discussion) Is the translation real?

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45 Upvotes

Especially the prayer part . I am not middle eastern so I don't have any ideas about Memri TV.


r/exmuslim 4h ago

(Question/Discussion) Have you ever seen a Hijazi Burqa/ Niqab (veil) before?

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10 Upvotes

I was looking at historical photos of Mecca and Medina and noticed that women rarely appeared in the streets. Like many conservative Muslim societies, it seems women generally did not go out without a specific purpose.

https://saudiarabesque.com/outdoor-traditional-dress-of-a-woman-from-hijaz-saudi-arabia/

In the few, rare photos where women do appear, they are FULLY veiled. Looking into traditional urban Hejazi dress, I found descriptions of a black outer cloak, similar to today's abaya, paired with a long white face veil resembling a historical burqa or modern niqab.

What I find strange is that some modern Saudi Hejazis deny this tradition altogether, claiming women in the Hejaz were not veiled, and lying further to claim that they were unveiled.
Yet the historical record overwhelmingly shows veiled women in the cities of Mecca, Medina, and Jeddah, while the few examples of unveiled women mostly come from remote mountain villages, which were not representative of the urban population.
Hejazi historians have also documented and preserved these garments and burqas.

It's interesting how the holy cities influenced dress and customs across much of the Muslim world. Whatever one's views today, denying that veiling was a common practice in the urban Hejaz seems inconsistent with the historical evidence.


r/exmuslim 7h ago

(Fun@Fundies) 💩 My favourite accusation of all time is that we are not truly exmuslim

18 Upvotes

I love this level of delulu. I would love to be so delusional about anything in my life, it must be soooo nice...

When I was little I was fed with the stories that death for apostacy in islam doesn't mean anything because it was never implemented because nobody ever left islam. And I believed it :D

Nobody. Ever. Left. Islam.

We are all pretending, we are zionists who are paid to run this community and we show how little we know about islam everyday... aaand why so many non muslims post here?

I just love those delulus.


r/exmuslim 6h ago

(Question/Discussion) “No liability if she DIES”: Hanbali rulings on beating a disobedient wife

15 Upvotes

The following Hanbali sources discuss striking a wife for nushūz, including refusing sexual access, disobeying her husband, or leaving the house without his permission. Despite describing the striking as “non-severe,” they repeatedly state that the husband bears no liability if she dies from it.

If she withholds herself from him without a valid excuse, he shall admonish her. If she does not heed the admonishment, he shall desert her [in the marital bed]. If she still does not submit herself [to him], he may strike her, provided that the striking is not severe — meaning it must not be of a kind that risks causing her death. If she dies as a result of it, he bears no liability.

Ibn ʿAqīl — al-Tadhkira fī al-Fiqh, p. 248
https://shamela.ws/book/17363/244

Al-Ḥajjāwī gives more detail about what constitutes nushūz and how the striking should be carried out:

But if she persists and openly shows nushūz — such as by disobeying him, refusing to answer him to the bed, leaving his house without his permission, and the like — then he may abandon her in the sleeping-place as long as he wishes, and in speech for three days, not more than that. If she persists and does not desist, then he may strike her. So the striking comes after abandoning her in the bed and leaving off speaking to her. It must be a non-severe striking, meaning not harsh. He must avoid the face, the stomach, and dangerous places. What is preferred is ten lashes or fewer. It was also said: with a light whip, or a mikhraq — a wrapped handkerchief — not with a whip and not with wood. If she dies from that, there is no liability upon him.

Al-Ḥajjāwī — al-Iqnāʿ, 3/251
https://shamela.ws/book/7360/1516
The same ruling is also reproduced here by al-Saffārīnī:
https://shamela.ws/book/25791/864

Ibn Balbān gives essentially the same ruling and includes showing annoyance when called for sexual enjoyment among the signs of nushūz:

If signs of it appear from her, such as her becoming sluggish and evasive when he calls her to sexual enjoyment, or answering him while annoyed and unwilling, or her etiquette toward him becoming defective, he admonishes her. If she returns to obedience and proper conduct, abandonment and striking become forbidden. But if she persists and openly shows nushūz, by disobeying him, refusing to answer him to the bed, or leaving his house without his permission, and the like, he abandons her in bed as long as he wishes, and in speech for only three days. If she is not deterred, then he may strike her with a non-severe striking, distributing it over her body, avoiding the face, the stomach, and dangerous places, and he must not exceed ten lashes. If she dies from that, there is no liability upon him.

Ibn Balbān — Mukhtaṣar al-Ifādāt, p. 401
https://shamela.ws/book/147311/395

A modern fiqh encyclopedia summarizes the Hanbali position and explicitly explains why the husband supposedly bears no liability:

The Hanbalis said: He may strike her with a non-severe striking, with ten lashes and no more, due to the hadith: None of you should lash more than ten lashes, except in one of the prescribed punishments of Allah Most High. He must avoid the face, dangerous places, and places of beauty, so as not to disfigure her, because the purpose is discipline, not destruction; and because of his ﷺ statement: Do not strike the face, do not insult/declare ugly, and do not abandon except inside the house. Aḥmad said regarding a man who strikes his wife: It is not proper for anyone to ask him — nor even her father — why he struck her. It was also said: He strikes her with a dirrah or a mikhraq — which is a wrapped handkerchief — not with a whip and not with wood, because the intended purpose is discipline and restraining her. So he begins with the easiest, then the next easiest. If she dies from that, there is no liability upon him, because it is something permitted by the Law.

Yāsir al-Najjār — Mawsūʿat al-Fiqh, 16/411
https://shamela.ws/book/30065/9871

So although these texts impose limits on the severity, number, location, and instrument of the blows, they repeatedly reach the same conclusion: if the wife dies from the supposedly permitted beating, the husband bears no liability.


r/exmuslim 49m ago

Story Why i'm not longer muslim. Methodological reason.

Upvotes

when i left islam i was not pretty sure, it was because of quranic verses that made no sense and had ethical, scientific, cosmological, historical errors. Later i started about the whole thing, why i was muslim in the first place? it was because i was brainwashed since birth like many other beliefs my family and society have. What i did then is i decided to be neutral, someone who never heard of islam and got approached and preeched by muhammad and since he's not here, his original speech without interpretations is here, so i started reading the quran like someone got preached to as intended by muhammad exactly against non believers of his time (this is what you should for every claim and belief). after many reads i didn't get convinced by his arguments, so weak. Only then i rejected his claims as a preacher and claimed prophet with divine revelations.
i think everyone should do the same, be neutral, someone who read the quran (original speech without interpretations) like the non believers of his time and see if you're convinced or not.
starting with apologetics or polemics is not the right mindset, for claims, i told you what you should do and what everyone should do. no fear even though psychologically it's hard to do so when you were brainwashed with beliefs in young age.


r/exmuslim 20h ago

(Video) Incest Allowed in Islam

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166 Upvotes

While it’s true that this is a position held only by one of the four main schools in Sunni Islam, it’s a fruit of the same poisonous thinking that manifests in other less obvious ways.
For more check my TikTok @forbidden.azazel


r/exmuslim 41m ago

(Quran / Hadith) Earliest Tafsirs Said the Sun Literally Sets in a Muddy Spring

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The Quran describes Dhul Qarnayn's journey:

“And he followed a road till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout.”
Quran 18:85-86

The full story goes like this:

The Dhul Qarnayn story begins: “They will ask thee of Dhu’l-Qarneyn.” In it, he traveled until he reached (balagha) the setting place of the sun and found (wajada) the sun setting in a muddy spring, and found (wajada) a community near it. Then he reached (balagha) the rising place of the sun where people had no shelter from it. Then he followed another path until he reached (balagha) a place between two mountains, where he found (wajada) a people asking for help against Gog and Magog. He built an iron and copper wall between the cliffs to seal them off until doomsday.
Quran 18:83-102

Quran 18:86 in Arabic word for word creates two independent problems:

  1. First, Dhul Qarnayn reached (balagha) a location: the setting place of the sun (maghriba l-shamsi).
  2. There, he found (wajada) the sun setting in a muddy spring (ʿaynin ḥami-atin). And he found (wajada) a community near it.

The earliest tafsirs, including Tafsir al-Tabari, literally said the sun set in a muddy spring:

The sun sets in a spring of murky, black mud; then it falls down in prostration beneath the Throne, seeks permission [to rise again], and is granted permission.” (on Quran 36:38)
“This means that the sun and moon enter beneath the earth from the west and emerge from beneath the earth in the east, then travel through the sky until they set in the west. This is their orbit.(on Quran 36:40)
“‘He found the sun setting in a muddy spring’ - that is, a hot, black spring.” (on Quran 18:86)
Tafsir Muqatil (d. 767 AD)

“It has reached me that the sun sets in a spring, and the spring hurls it to the east.”
Tafsir Sa’id b. Mansur (d. 842 AD)
Tafsir al-Tha’labi (d. 1035 AD)
Tafsir al-Suyuti (d. 1505 AD)

“A city with twelve thousand gates; were it not for its inhabitants’ voices, people would hear the sun fall as it sets.
Abu al-Shaykh, al-Azama (d. 979 AD)
Tafsir al-Suyuti (d. 1505 AD)

“The reading ḥamiʾah means [a spring] of black, foul-smelling mud; ḥāmiyah means ‘hot.’ … ‘And he found (wajada) beside it a people’ - that is, beside the spring in which the sun sets.
Tafsir al-Samarqandi (d. 984 AD)

Tafsir al-Tabari (d. 923 AD), widely considered one of the most authoritative Quranic commentaries, on Quran 18:86

Tafsir al-Tabari preserves the debate between Muhammad's Companion Ibn Abbas and the salaf over whether the spring where the sun sets is muddy or hot. And Ibn Abbas, who Muhammad prayed for to get the correct interpretation of the book (Sunan Ibn Majah 166), said that the sun sets in a muddy spring. Tabari says both readings are correct because the sun could set in a spring that is both hot and muddy:

Allah says: (Until, when Dhul-Qarnayn reached the setting of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring.) The readers differed on how to read this. Some of the readers of Madina and Basra read it as (in a muddy spring), meaning that the sun sets in a spring that contains mud. While a group of the readers of Medina and the majority of the people of Kufa read it as, (in a warm spring) meaning that the sun sets in a spring of warm water.

Al-Husayn b. Al-Junayd ← Sayd b. Salamah ← Ismail b. Aliyah ← Uthman b. Hadir: I heard Abdullah b. Abbas said: Muawiyah recited this verse, and he said (warm spring) and Ibn Abbas said: it is (muddy spring). He said: So they sent to Ka'b Al-Ahbar and asked him. Ka'b said: As for the sun, it disappears in 'Thatin', which matched what Ibn Abbas said, and the word tha'at means "mud".

And in my (Tabari's) mind the correct opinion is to say that they are both popular readings in the land, and each one has a correctness about it and an understandable meaning, and neither contradicts the other, for it is possible that the sun sets in a hot spring that has mud and sludge, so a reader who uses "hot spring" is describing its temperature, and the reader who uses "muddy spring" is describing that it has mud and sludge. Both versions have been narrated to us.

Muhammad b. Al-Muthanna ← Yazid b. Harun ← The common people ← A freed slave of Abdullah b. Amr ← Abdullah: "The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, looked at the sun when it set, and said: 'In the blazing fire of Allah, in the blazing fire of Allah: If it wasn't for Allah's command, the sun would burn all those who are on earth.'"
Tafsir al-Tabari (d. 923 AD) on Quran 18:86

They started changing it only after it became too embarrassing.

See more here:
https://islamsproblems.com/quran-sun-sets-in-muddy-spring/


r/exmuslim 10h ago

(Question/Discussion) Islam is a little bit weird?

22 Upvotes

I’m not an ex muslim but I always have these thoughts where I’m not 100% convinced of what Islam and Muslims preaches about , since I was a kid I always saw the hypocrisy the hiding behind the image of a saint it was always so obvious even tho the average person around me especially the older ones seems so clueless.
Never understood if Islam is such a perfect religion why it has a long history of violence, slavery and unfairness I try to tell myself “no it’s not Islam it’s Muslims” but where did Muslims get these ideas from then? Why every Muslim community has the same mentality if it’s not Islam ?
It seems it’s always the weird communities that practice violence against women and so on are the ones that adopt Islam never the more progressive communities
I always viewed the ex Muslims thoughts as common sense, but was never bold enough to dig deep down more even tho I question everything but I try to not find out more because you know it’s would change my life in a whole different way and I would feel more and more isolated from my surroundings
I have a question for ex Muslims , what was the thing that made you be like “that’s it this religion is bullshit” and how is your life going now?


r/exmuslim 57m ago

(Question/Discussion) Inaccuracies in the Quran and Hadiths - Part 1/3

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This is my take on the inaccuracies I found through individual searching and collecting from other people. I wanted to make it a book ngl but thought it would be a bit disrespectful since a lot of these inaccuracies were pointed out by other people, so I didn't want to steal anyone's credit. Again, this is my take, I tried my best and surely there will be mistakes that I didn't notice. Don't take this very seriously, they are just my notes but a bit organized into pairs of inaccuarcy and response. They also include few "scientific miracles". You will also see I used the same phrases, it is just because I am a bit OCD and like to be consistent in my style of writing. Normal style is the claim and the italic is the response. At the end you will find the references, most of them are from the Quran and the 6 books of Sunnah but there are few from Musnad Ahmad and other not very known books. Finally, it will take time to post the other two parts. Some of these might seem nitpicky but i was trying to be thorough. Enjoy the read and try not to share this too much with muslims, not because I am worried of them debunking this, but I am tired of seeing bs responses in my notifications. So, you can just copy it and edit if you want.

Muhammad stated that before creation of the Earth and the Heavens, Allah was in a cloud, above and below it is air, then Allah created the throne on water, then created the Earth and the Heavens [1] [2]. Scholars confirmed these statements and added that the water below the throne is carried by wind [3].

Water and wind can not exist before the creation of the Universe, because water is made of matter that can only exist after the creation of the Universe.

The Quran states that Allah created the Earth and the Heavens in six days [4]. Scholars said that the six days are Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday in that order, and that nothing was created on Saturday, however, they disagreed on whether each of these days is like a normal day or equivalent to 1000 years [4]. The first opinion relied on Quranic verses and hadiths stating that one day for Allah is equivalent to 1000 years for humans, or that half a day is equivalent to 500 years [5] [6] [7].

The Universe was neither created in 6 days nor 6000 years, it was created from the Big Bang 13.8 billion years ago.

The Quran states that Allah created everything on the Earth then turned towards the Heaven, forming it into seven Heavens [8]. The Quran states that Allah created the Earth on the first two days (i.e. Sunday and Monday), then he put the mountains on top of the Earth, blessed the Earth and determined its means of sustenance on the second two days (i.e. Tuesday and Wednesday), then Allah turned towards the Heaven when it was smoke, telling the Heaven and the Earth to submit, willingly or unwillingly, they both responded that they submit willingly, then he formed the Heaven into seven Heavens in two days (i.e. Thursday and Friday), assigned to each layer its mandate (i.e. created each layer’s creations such as the Sun and the Moon) and adorned the lowest Heaven with lamps for decoration and protection [9]. The Quran states that the Heavens and the Earth were conjoined, and then separated [10]. Scholars explained that Allah’s throne was on water, he brought forth smoke (i.e. water vapor) from the water, which rose above the water and became higher than it, and he called it Heaven, then dried the water and made it one Earth, then split it into seven Earths in two days, then created the Earth’s means of sustenance and the mountains in two days, and then split the Heaven into seven Heavens in two days. The Earth being created in twice the time as the Heavens indicates that the Earth is comparable in size to the Heavens.

The Earth was neither created in 4 days nor 4000 years, it took millions of years for the Earth to form. The Earth was not the first thing to form, it started to form 9.3 billion years after the Big Bang. The Earth did not take twice the time to form than the rest of the Universe, it was formed in a small fraction of the Universe’s age. The Earth is not comparable in size to the rest of the Universe. The Universe was not formed from water, the first element was hydrogen. The Universe did not experience a separation, it was created from the Big Bang, an expansion of an initial state with high density and temperature.

Apologetics argue that the Quran confirms the existence of cosmic dust, saying that the word “Dukhan” means “dust” [9].

The correct definition of the word is “smoke”, where the verse refers to the vapor of the water below the throne of Allah that was used to create the Heavens.

The Quran states that after creating the Heavens and their day and night, Allah spread the Earth flat, brought forth its water and pastures and set up the mountains [11]. Scholars said that the spreading of the Earth, bringing forth its water and pastures and setting up the mountains were a separate step that occurred after the six days. The Quran states that Allah made mountains like stakes or pegs that were thrown and set up on the Earth after its spreading so that it does not sway or shake with people on top [12–15]. Muhammad stated that when Allah created the Earth, it started swaying and shaking, so Allah created the mountains, and set them up on the Earth, making it settle [16]. Scholars said that the Earth was spread on water, the mountains are in contact with the water, and without the existence of mountains, the water will cause the Earth to move and sway. Muhammad stated that the highest Earth is on a whale’s back whose ends have met in the sky [17]. Scholars said that Allah created a giant whale, then the Earth was spread out on the whales’ back, then the whale trembled, and the Earth shook, then it was stabilized by the mountains. The Quran states that Allah will make the mountains move from their places on the Day of Judgement, causing the Earth to become bare [18]. The movement of the mountains out of their places from the Earth indicates that the mountains are objects separate from the Earth.

The Earth was not spread flat during its formation. Mountains did not form after pastures because mountains started forming around 2 billion years ago while the first land plants emerged around 500 million years ago. Mountains are not objects separate from the Earth’s crust that were put on the Earth to stabilize it, the same way stakes or pegs are put on the sides of a sheet to keep it stable. Mountains are parts of the Earth’s tectonic plates that protrude from the surface due to collisions with other tectonic plates. The Earth neither floats on a large body of water nor on the back of a giant whale. There is also a contradiction between the verses on the order of the mountains’ creation where on one hand, they are created during the second two days and on the other hand, they are created after the spreading of the Earth which was after the six days.

Apologetics argue that the verse confirms the roundness of the Earth, saying that the word “Daha” is linguistically related to the word “ostrich egg” [11].

The correct definition of the word is “to spread something flat” and it is linguistically related to the word “Adha” that means an ostrich nest (not an ostrich egg), since ostriches spread the ground flat before laying the eggs. Moreover, Aristotle proposed that the Earth is spherical in the 4th century BC, hundreds of years before Muhammad.

Apologetics argue that the Quran confirms the slight movement of mountains, saying that the verse refers to a phenomenon that happens to mountains in general [19].

The verse describes one of the events of the Day of Judgement, where mountains will seem as if they are moving, as shown in the previous verse that mentions the Day of Judgement and in another verse that mentions the same event with different wording [20]. Moreover, even if we assume the claim is correct, the slight movement of mountains is not similar to the movement of clouds.

Muhammad stated that Allah created the soil on Saturday, the mountains on Sunday, the trees on Monday, the metals on Tuesday and the light (i.e. the Sun, the Moon, stars and planets) on Wednesday, then spread the animals on Thursday, and finally created Adam on the last few hours of Friday, between afternoon and night [21].

Most celestial objects were formed before the Earth’s soil, mountains, trees and metals. Metals were formed inside the Earth’s crust before trees could even grow. There are also few contradictions with other verses on the number of days being seven instead of six, the starting day being Saturday instead of Sunday and the order of the mountains being on the second day instead of the third or fourth or after the six days.

The Quran states that Allah created seven layers of the Earth like he did with the Heavens [22]. Muhammad stated that certain people will be dropped to the lowest layer of the Earth, confirming that the seven Earths are above each other [23].

The geological layers of the Earth are not seven layers, they are either five layers or more than seven layers depending on the classification.

Muhammad stated that the distance between each layer and the next is a journey of 500 years, the second Earth is the prison of the wind, the third contains the stones of Hell, the fourth contains the sulfur of Hell, the fifth contains the snakes of Hell, the sixth contains the scorpions of Hell, and the seventh contains Saqar, and in it Satan is chained with iron [17]. Scholars explained that the thickness of each Earth is a journey of 500 years, and the distance between each Earth and the next is a journey of 500 years. According to scholars, people at that time travelled around 24 miles per day, which is equivalent to around 38 km per day, therefore, 500 years would be around 6.7 million km. Scholars also mentioned there are prophets and creatures in each layer of the Earth like the prophets in the highest Earth.

The thickness of each of the Earth’s layers is not 6.7 million km, the distance from the Earth’s surface to its center is around 6,371 km. The layers are not separated by a distance of 6.7 million km, they are compact. There is no life under the Earth’s crust due to the high pressure and temperature as we go deeper, closer to the Earth’s core.

The Quran states that Allah built and raised the seven Heavens above each other like a ceiling or a dome above the Earth with no pillars (or with no visible pillars) [24–28]. The Quran states that Allah holds the sky preventing it from falling on the Earth, and that if Allah wants, he can make parts of the sky fall on people as punishment for their disbelief [29] [30]. The Quran states that Allah adorned the lowest layer of the Heavens with lamps, referring to the stars and planets [31]. The Quran states that the Heavens will split, move and be folded like how pages are folded or scrolls are rolled on the Day of Judgement [32–34]. Muhammad said that Allah will fold the Heavens with his right hand on the Day of Judgement [35].

The seven layers of the Earth’s atmosphere do not fit that description because stars and planets are not located in the atmosphere’s first layer. Outer space also does not fit that description as well because space can not fall on the Earth.

The Quran states that Allah opened the doors of the Heavens for the rain to fall during Noah’s flood [36]. The Quran states that disbelievers will not believe in the Quran, even if Allah opened a door to the Heavens for the disbelievers to ascend, they would say that they were bewitched [37]. The Quran mentions al-Asbaab (gates, pathways, roads or ropes) leading to the Heavens, where in one verse, Allah is challenging the polytheists to ascend al-Asbaab, and in another verse, Moses’ Pharaoh wanted to build a tall tower so that he could reach al-Asbaab and see Moses’ God [38] [39].

There are no doors, gates, pathways, roads nor ropes leading to the Heavens, whatever these Heavens are.

Muhammad stated that the distance between the lowest Heaven and the highest Earth is a journey of 500 years, and added that the distance between each layer as well as the thickness of each layer is also a journey of 500 years [40–44]. Other narrations of these hadiths state 70-ish years instead of 500 years [45]. Scholars confirmed the 500-year dimensions. That means that the total distance from the Earth’s surface to the top of the seven Heavens is equivalent to a distance that would take humans 7,000 years (14 x 500) to cross at most. According to scholars, people at that time travelled around 24 miles per day, which is equivalent to around 38 km per day, therefore, 500 and 7,000 years would be around 6.7 and 94 million km, respectively.

Outer space does not fit that description because the distance between the Earth and the Sun (around 150 million km) is bigger than the dimensions mentioned for the Heavens.

Muslims claim that the Quran confirms the expansion of the universe, saying that the word “Musiuun” means expanders [46].

The correct definition of the word is “capable” or “making something spacious”. The first interpretation states that Allah is capable of creating the Heavens. This definition can be proved from another verse that uses the same word in singular form to refer to financially capable people [47]. The second interpretation states that the Heavens were made spacious and no mention of continuous expansion. Finally, Hinduism texts already mentioned the universe’s expansion hundreds of years before Muhammad.

The Quran states that Allah spread the Earth flat, made it like a mat, a cradle and a bed, and made it stable and stationary [48–50]. Scholars agreed that the Earth is spread flat, stationary and nothing makes it move except for earthquakes and one of these verses serves as a good counter against people who claim the Earth is spherical. Muhammad asked a slave woman about the whereabouts of Allah, she replied that Allah is in the Heavens and Muhammad confirmed her answer to be correct [51]. The location of Allah indicates that Allah is above all people at the same time, which is only possible if the Earth is flat and stationary. The Quran mentions the Inhabited House [52]. Scholars said that this house is located above the Ka’ba in the Heavens, next to the throne of Allah. The location of this house indicates that this house, and consequently Mecca, are stationary, which is only possible if the Earth is stationary. The Quran states that a person can direct themselves towards the Ka’ba wherever they are [53]. The concept of the Qibla indicates that there is only one singular direction to face the Ka’ba and it should be a straight line, which is only possible if the Earth is flat, otherwise in a round Earth, there would be two curved ways to face the Ka’ba.

The Earth is neither flat nor stationary. The Earth is an ellipsoid and rotates around its axis and around the Sun, and its tectonic plates are always moving.

Apologetics argue that the correct direction to the Qibla is the curved line with the shortest distance to the Ka’ba.

There is no evidence in Islamic texts that supports this rule. Moreover, this rule faces a contradiction, where modern scholars ruled that astronauts can face Mecca for prayer, but the direction would then be a straight line, not a curved one, contradicting the previous rule.

The Quran states that Dhul-Qarnayn reached the places where the sun sets and rises, and the sun sets in a muddy spring [54] [55]. Scholars were divided on whether those places refer to locations where the sun sets into the Earth and rises from it or refer to the edges of the Earth. Both interpretations indicate that the East and the West are fixed locations that can be reached, which is only possible if the Earth is flat. Muhammad used to say a prayer where he would ask Allah to separate him from his sins as Allah had separated the East from the West [56]. The separation of the East and the West indicate that they are fixed locations separated by a specific distance, which is only possible if the Earth is flat.

The East and the West are not fixed locations that are separated by a fixed distance, they are relative directions that change depending on the observer and converge at the poles of the Earth. The Sun neither sets into the Earth nor rises from it.

Muhammad stated that Allah descends down to the lowest Heaven during the last third of each night to answer the requests of people in the world [57]. The descent of Allah to the lowest Heaven at night indicates that the Earth’s day and night cycle is fixed for all people, which is only possible if the Earth is flat and stationary.

The Earth’s day and night cycle is not fixed for all people, some regions experience day at the same time other regions experience night.

Muhammad stated that Hell complained to Allah that parts of it have eaten each other and asked him to give permission for Hell to breathe, so Allah gave Hell permission to have two breaths, one in the winter and one in the summer, and this is the reason for the heat of Summer and the cold of Winter [58]. The annual two breaths of Hell indicates that Summer and Winter are fixed for all the Earth, which is only possible if the Earth is flat.

The temperatures of Summer and Winter are not caused by Hell, they are caused by the Earth’s axial tilt which is 23.5 degrees. That tilt causes the northern or southern hemisphere to be a little closer to the Sun depending on the time of the year, which depends on the location of the Earth in its orbit around the Sun. This results in different regions experiencing different seasons at the same time.

The Quran states that the Sun runs to a destination [59]. Muhammad explained that the destination of the Sun is the throne of Allah, as the Sun goes to the throne at sunset and comes back during sunrise when granted permission to do so, and one day, permission will not be granted and the Sun will be ordered to return the same way it has come and so it will rise from the west at the end times [60]. This trajectory of the Sun indicates that the Earth’s day and night cycle is caused by the Sun’s movement and that sunsets occur for all people on Earth at the same time, which are only possible if the Earth is flat and stationary. Muhammad stated that one of the signs of the Last Hour is the Sun rising from the west [61]. This sign will be witnessed by all people at the same time, which is only possible if the Earth is flat and stationary, and the Sun is moving over the Earth then reversing its trajectory.

The Sun does not orbit the Earth, and sunset and sunrise are not fixed for all people on Earth. The Earth’s day and night cycle is caused by the Earth’s rotation around its axis. Even if we assume that the Earth rotates in Islam, then that means that the Earth will suddenly stop its rotation then reverse it, destroying all life on Earth, contradicting the Islamic narrative of the end times.

The Quran states that the Sun, the Moon, the day and the night travel in orbits, the Sun is followed by the Moon, and the Sun can not catch up with the moon and the night can not outrun the day [62–64]. The association between the orbits of the Sun and the Moon and the day and night, the Moon following the Sun and the Sun not catching up to the Moon all indicate that the Sun orbits the Earth causing the day, similar to how the Moon orbits the Earth causing the night while are separated by a certain distance, which is only possible if the Earth is flat and stationary. Scholars mentioned that celestial objects such as the Sun and the solar system’s planets orbit the Earth, saying that the first and closest orbit to the Earth is the Moon’s orbit, then Mercury’s orbit, then Venus’ orbit, then the Sun’s orbit, then Mars’ orbit, then Jupiter’s orbit, then Saturn’s orbit and so on. Scholars also said that the Sun can not be present at the same time as the Moon because the Sun only appears at day while the Moon only appears at night, therefore, each of them can not be in the other’s time, and it is impossible for a night to follow another night without a day in the middle.

The Moon does not follow the Sun, because the Sun does not orbit the Earth unlike the Moon. The Sun and all of the planets in the Solar system do not orbit the Earth. The Earth and the planets are the ones rotating around their own axes and around the Sun. The Moon is present at the same time as the Sun most of the time but its light is not visible because the intensity of the sunlight overwhelms the moonlight during the day. Days can pass without nights and vice versa in regions close to the Earth’s poles (e.g. Iceland) during Summer and Winter respectively.

Apologetics argue that the Quran confirms the roundness of the Earth, saying that the word Kawwar means to wrap around a sphere [65].

While it is correct that the word can be used to refer to wrapping a turban, the general definition of the word is “to put things together” or “to put things over each other”. In the context of the verse, it refers to Allah putting the night over the day to turn the light of the day off and vice versa. This definition can be proved from other Quranic verses and hadiths that use the same word to refer to the Sun and Moon getting folded on the Day of Judgement [66] [67]. Moreover, even if the meaning implies roundness, the verse mentions the night wrapping the day and vice versa and no mention of the Earth. Finally, Aristotle already proposed that the Earth is spherical in the 4th century BC, hundreds of years before Islam.

Muhammad stated that the Sun will draw close to the Earth on the Day of Judgement to the point of being at one mile distance from the Earth, people will sweat and the amount of sweat will depend on the deeds of the person, the better his deeds, the more he sweats [68]. This sign will be witnessed by all people at the same time, which is only possible if the Earth is flat and stationary.

The Sun getting close to the Earth would not cause a slight increase in temperature that people sweat, it would scorch the Earth in flames, causing the death of all living creatures on Earth, which contradicts the Islamic narrative of the end times.

Muhammad stated that the Dajjal will be on Earth for forty days, where the first day is as long as a year, the second day is as long as a month, the third day is as long as a week and the rest of the days are like normal days [69]. This sign will be witnessed by all people at the same time, which is only possible if the Earth is flat and stationary, and the Sun is the one moving over the Earth then slowing its movement.

If we assume that the Earth is round and rotating in Islam, then that means that the Earth will slow down its rotation from 1,674 km/h to 4.7 km/h for the year-long day, causing natural catastrophes on Earth (e.g. the side facing the Sun would burn and the other side would freeze), killing everyone, contradicting the Islamic narrative of the end times.

The Quran does not differentiate between stars and planets and uses the same two words interchangeably (Kawkab and Najm) for both stars and planets [70] [71]. In early Arabic, the word Kawkab means a celestial object that glows in the sky, and the word Najm means something high and can refer to several things including a celestial object that glows in the sky. Therefore, every Kawkab is a Najm but not every Najm is a Kawkab. However there is a distinction between celestial objects that seem to be moving (sayyara) and celestial objects that seem to be stationary (thabita). This lack of distinction indicates that stars and planets are the same thing or share the same composition. The Quran states that stars and planets are used as projectiles to protect the Heavens from devils, so when a devil tries to eavesdrop, a meteor will go after it [72].

Stars such as the Sun are giant spheres of fire. Planets are either made of rocky materials (i.e. terrestrial planets) like Earth or Mars, or made of gases (i.e. gas giants and ice giants) like Jupiter and Neptune. Meteors are not falling stars and planets. They are meteoroids that travel through the Earth’s atmosphere and burn, leaving behind a streak of light. Meteoroids are rock fragments often from comets or asteroids, or from collision impact debris. Comets are icy bodies that drift in space and have tails caused by solar energy vaporizing them. Asteroids are objects larger than meteoroids that are rocky, metallic, or icy bodies with no atmosphere that orbit within the Solar System.

The Quran states that all the stars and planets will fall from the Heavens on the Day of Judgement [73]. The fall of all stars and planets onto the Earth indicates that either the Earth is large enough for all stars and planets of the Universe to fall onto or that the stars and planets are very small objects.

All stars and many planets are much larger in size than the Earth. Even a planet smaller than Earth such as Mercury is enough to destroy the Earth if it collides with it, contradicting the Islamic narrative of the end times.

The Quran mentions Allah swearing with Mawaqi’ an-Nujoom [74]. The first interpretation is the Quranic verses falling from the Heavens to Muhammad. The second interpretation is stars and planets falling into their places in the morning (i.e. setting like the Sun). The third interpretation stars and planets falling onto the Earth on the Day of Judgement.

Stars and planets do not set into places like a sunset because they do not orbit the Earth. The other interpretations were discussed previously.

The Quran mentions the words Khunnas and Kunnas, which means moving backwards and hiding until unseen, the same way animals hide in their dens [75]. Scholars were divided on the meaning of these verses, however, the more accepted opinion is that they refer to stars and planets, specifically the five planets: Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn.

Stars and planets do not move backward and hide from our sight during the day. The invisibility of stars and planets in the morning occurs because the sunlight overwhelms the faint light coming from stars and planets.

The Quran mentions an-Najm when it falls [76]. The first and most accepted interpretation is that it refers to Pleiades, a star cluster, falling after dawn, because early Arabs used to refer to Pleiades as an-Najm. The second interpretation is that it refers to stars and planets falling as meteors. The third interpretation is that it refers to stars and planets falling (i.e. setting) in their places in the morning. The fourth interpretation is that it refers to stars and planets falling onto the Earth on the Day of the Judgement.

Star clusters do not fall into places after dawn because they do not orbit the Earth. The invisibility of stars in the morning occurs because the sunlight overwhelms the faint light coming from stars. The other interpretations were discussed previously.

Apologetics argue that the Quran confirms the existence of pulsars, saying that the word “at-Tariq” means “knocking” and that the sound of pulsars is similar to knocking sounds [77].

The correct definition of the word is “appearing at night”, where the verse refers to a certain celestial object (Pleiades, Capricornus or Saturn) appearing at night. This definition can be proved from other texts that use the same word in noun and verb forms to refer to people coming home at night [78] [79].

The Quran states that Allah erased the sign of night [80]. Scholars explained that the sign of the night means the Moon, that the Moon was like the Sun in the past, both created from the light of Allah’s throne and each of them having 70 parts of light, then Allah erased 69 parts of the Moon's light and combined them with the Sun's light, and that the erasure was done by Gabriel hitting his wings on the Moon three times, causing the black spots on the Moon. The erasure of the Moon indicates that the Moon emits its own light and that the Sun is 139 times brighter than the Moon.

The Sun and the Moon do not share the same composition. The Sun is a star made from burning gases, and the Moon is a satellite planet made from rocks. The Moon does not emit its own light, it reflects the sunlight on its surface. The moonlight was neither intense like the Sun nor reduced. The sunlight is not 139 times more intense than the moonlight, it is 400,000 times more intense. The dark spots on the Moon (i.e. Lunar Maria) were not caused by an Angel hitting it, it was caused by ancient volcanic eruptions filling large impact basins.

The Quran states that the Moon will have its light gone like a Lunar eclipse on the Day of Judgement [81]. Scholars added that this phenomenon will be a permanent eclipse unlike the temporary Lunar eclipses we see. This sign indicates that the Moon emits its own light and Lunar eclipses happen through the disappearance of that innate light.

The Moon does not emit its own light, it reflects the light coming from the Sun on its surface. Lunar eclipses occur when the Earth blocks the sunlight from reaching the Moon.

Apologetics argue that the Quran confirms the reflection of sunlight by the Moon, saying that the word “Nur” means “reflected light” [82].

The correct definition of the word is “light without heat”, where the verse states that Allah created the Moon whose light is without heat as opposed to the Sun whose light is with heat. Moreover, that claim contradicts with Islamic theology because the Quran states that Allah is and has Nur, which would mean that Allah is reflecting light from another source that is equal or higher in power to him [83]. Finally, Anaxagoras already proposed that the Moon reflects light in the 5th century BC, hundreds of years before Islam.

Muhammad stated that Solar and Lunar eclipses are signs from Allah and if people see an eclipse, they should hurry to pray and remember Allah until the eclipse ends, because eclipses are ways for Allah to frighten his slaves [84]. The purpose of eclipses indicates that eclipses are events that can not be predicted.

Solar and Lunar eclipses are periodic astronomical events that can be predicted easily.

The Quran states that Allah makes the rain fall from the Heavens, specifically from cold mountains located in the Heavens, the gates of the Heavens open to let that rain fall, the clouds are located between the Heavens and the Earth, and the rain falls through the clouds [85–87] [36]. Scholars mentioned that clouds are like sieves for the rain coming down from the sky, and without clouds, the rain would be toxic to the lands. The Quran states that Allah makes water fall from al-mu’siraat [88]. Scholars differed on whether al-mu’siraat refers to the clouds or the Heavens. The word comes from the verb asar, which means squeeze to make juice out of something, and the word is also used to describe a girl nearing her menstruation but has not yet menstruated. Therefore, the word al-mu’siraat implies holding liquid inside. Interpreting the word as the clouds indicates that clouds are like sponges that can be filled with water and then squeezed to make rain fall. In order to avoid contradictions with previous texts, the clouds would store the rain falling from the cold mountains in the Heavens, then the clouds filter the water and release it. This can also be proved from a Quranic verse using the phrase “we sent down rain with the clouds” instead of “we sent down rain from the clouds” [89]. The Quran describes the rainclouds as heavy [89] [90]. Scholars explained that the heaviness comes from how much water the rainclouds store.

Rain neither comes from the Heavens nor gets filtered by the clouds, it falls from the clouds themselves because clouds are water and ice droplets suspended in the atmosphere. There is no such thing as cold mountains in the Heavens, the rain is cold because it cooled down when it condensed to liquid.

Apologetics argue that the Heavens and the cold mountains refer to the clouds.

This claim contradicts with the verse stating that the clouds are located between the Heavens and the Earth [86]. Moreover, the Quran mentions the clouds, the Heavens and the cold mountains in the same verse as separate things doing different roles when talking about how rain falls, therefore it does not make sense to use the Heavens or the cold mountains as a synonym for the clouds [87].

The Quran states that Allah has the knowledge of the unknown such as the time of rainfall [91]. Muhammad explained that only Allah knows when rain will fall [92].

The time of rainfall can be predicted easily using atmospheric tools.

The Quran mentions thunder and lightning [93]. Muhammad stated that thunder is an Angel responsible for the clouds, where he uses fire whips to direct them to their destinations like a shepherd, and the sound heard is the Angel shouting at the clouds and/or whipping them [94]. Scholars confirmed these statements about thunder and lightning.

Collisions between ice crystals and water droplets in the clouds separate electrical charges in the clouds. When the charge difference between the cloud and the ground, or within the cloud itself, becomes too great, the insulating capacity of air breaks down, causing an electrical discharge, which is lightning. As lightning passes, it heats the air quickly, causing it to expand rapidly and creating the sound of thunder.

Apologetics argue that the Quran confirms the meteoritic origin of iron, saying that the word “Anzalna” means “we sent down” [95].

While the literal definition of the word is correct, the Quran uses the same word for several things Allah created for humans such as clothes and animals, which means that clothes and animals came from space [96] [97]. Moreover, not all the iron on Earth was from meteors, some were native to the Earth. Finally, ancient Egyptians already knew that iron comes from the sky because they used to call it “metal of Heaven”, hundreds of years before Islam.

Muhammad stated that Seyhan, Ceyhan, Nile and Euphrates are rivers from Paradise [98].

These rivers existed on Earth since their formations and their sources are either mountains, lakes or other rivers, not Paradise.

The Quran states that Allah merged freshwater and saltwater and made a barrier between them, preventing them from crossing and mixing [99].

Freshwater and saltwater actually mix in the area at the river mouth, which is called brackish water. It can be argued that this mixing is limited to that region and it acts as a barrier. However, the verses explicitly state that there is no mixing between the two bodies of water.

Apologetics argue that the Quran confirms the separation of the Pacific and Atlantic oceans, saying that the verse refers to two oceans [99].

The verses refer to freshwater and saltwater because one of the verses explicitly states the nature of the two bodies of water being freshwater and saltwater.

Apologetics argue that the Quran confirms the reduction of oxygen in high altitudes, saying that the verse refers to someone having his chest tight from lack of oxygen as he goes up in the sky [100].

The verse equates a person whom Allah misguided and made his heart closed trying to accept Islam to a person trying to ascend the Heavens, implying that both scenarios (i.e. accepting Islam and ascending the Heavens) are impossible to achieve. The tightening of the chest refers to the misguided person trying to accept Islam not to the person trying to ascend the Heavens. Moreover, even if the claim is true, the region where the decrease in oxygen and the tightness of the chest occur is the same one that has clouds, which according to the Quran, is not located in the Heavens [86]. Ascending the Heavens in this case would be going to space where instant death happens and not just tightness in the chest. Finally, early Arabs lived among Hijaz mountains, the highest peak being Jabal Werqaan (2,393 m), therefore, the knowledge that breathing becomes difficult in high altitudes was known among Arabs.

References:

  1. Sunan Ibn Majah 182, Sunan at-Tirmidhi 3109
  2. Sahih al-Bukhari 3191, 7418
  3. Quran 11:7
  4. Quran 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, 25:59, 32:4, 50:38, 57:4
  5. Quran 22:47
  6. Sunan Ibn Majah 4122, Sunan at-Tirmidhi 2354
  7. Sunan Abi Dawud 4350
  8. Quran 2:29
  9. Quran 41:9–12
  10. Quran 21:30
  11. Quran 79:27–32
  12. Quran 78:7
  13. Quran 88:19
  14. Quran 13:3, 15:19, 50:7
  15. Quran 16:15, 21:31, 31:10
  16. Sunan at-Tirmidhi 3369
  17. Al-Tawhid Ibn Manda 59
  18. Quran 18:47
  19. Quran 27:88
  20. Quran 52:10
  21. Sahih Muslim 2789
  22. Quran 65:12
  23. Sahih al-Bukhari 2452–2454, 3195, 3196, 3198, Sahih Muslim 1610, 1611
  24. Quran 78:12, 79:27
  25. Quran 13:2, 52:5, 79:28, 88:18
  26. Quran 67:3, 71:15
  27. Quran 2:22, 21:32, 40:64, 52:5
  28. Quran 13:2, 31:10
  29. Quran 22:65
  30. Quran 34:9
  31. Quran 37:6, 41:12, 67:5
  32. Quran 25:25, 69:16, 78:19
  33. Quran 52:9
  34. Quran 39:67
  35. Sahih Muslim 2787, 2788, Sunan Abi Dawud 4732
  36. Quran 54:11
  37. Quran 15:14
  38. Quran 38:10
  39. Quran 40:36–37
  40. Sunan at-Tirmidhi 2588
  41. Sunan at-Tirmidhi 3298
  42. Musnad Ahmad 1770
  43. Sunan at-Tirmidhi 2540, 3294, Musnad Ahmad 11719
  44. Musnad al-Bazzar 4075
  45. Sunan Abi Dawud 4723, Sunan Ibn Majah 193, Sunan at-Tirmidhi 3320
  46. Quran 51:47
  47. Quran 2:236
  48. Quran 13:3, 15:19, 50:7, 51:48, 79:30, 88:20, 91:6
  49. Quran 2:22, 20:53, 43:10, 71:19, 78:6
  50. Quran 27:61, 40:64
  51. Sahih Muslim 537, Sunan Abi Dawud 930, 3282, Sunan an-Nasa'i 1218
  52. Quran 52:4
  53. Quran 2:144
  54. Quran 18:86
  55. Quran 18:90
  56. Sahih al-Bukhari 744, 6368, 6375, 6377, Sunan Abi Dawud 781, Sunan an-Nasa'i 60, 895, 5466, Sunan Ibn Majah 805, 3838, Sunan at-Tirmidhi 3495
  57. Sahih al-Bukhari 1145, 6321, 7494, Sahih Muslim 758, Sunan Abi Dawud 1315, 4733, Sunan Ibn Majah 1366, Sunan at-Tirmidhi 446, 3498
  58. Sahih al-Bukhari 533–539, 629, 3258–3260, Sahih Muslim 615–617, Sunan Abi Dawud 401, 402, Sunan Ibn Majah 677–679, 4319, Sunan an-Nasa'i 500, 501, Sunan at-Tirmidhi 157, 158, 2592
  59. Quran 36:38
  60. Sahih al-Bukhari 3199, 4802, 4803, 7424, 7433, Sahih Muslim 159, Sunan at-Tirmidhi 2186, 3227
  61. Sahih al-Bukhari 4635, 4636, 6506, 7121, Sahih Muslim 157, Sunan Ibn Majah 4068, Sunan Abi Dawud 4312
  62. Quran 21:33
  63. Quran 91:2
  64. Quran 36:40
  65. Quran 39:5
  66. Quran 81:1
  67. Sahih al-Bukhari 3200
  68. Sahih Muslim 2864, Sunan at-Tirmidhi 2421
  69. Sahih Muslim 2937, Sunan Ibn Majah 4075, Sunan at-Tirmidhi 2240, Sunan Abi Dawud 4321, 4322
  70. Quran 6:76, 12:4, 37:6, 82:2
  71. Quran 6:97, 7:54, 16:12, 37:88, 52:49, 56:75, 77:8, 81:2
  72. Quran 15:16–18, 37:6–10, 41:12, 67:5
  73. Quran 81:2, 82:2
  74. Quran 56:75
  75. Quran 81:15–16
  76. Quran 53:1
  77. Quran 86:1–3
  78. Sahih al-Bukhari 1800, 1801, 5243, 5244, Sahih Muslim 1928, Sunan at-Tirmidhi 2712
  79. Hisn al-Muslim 247
  80. Quran 17:12
  81. Quran 75:8
  82. Quran 10:5, 71:16
  83. Quran 9:32, 24:35, 39:69, 61:8
  84. Sahih al-Bukhari 1040–1044, 1046–1048, 1052, 1057–1060, 1063, 1212, 3201–3204, 5197, 5785, Sahih Muslim 901, 904, 907, 911, 912, 914, 915, Sunan an-Nasa'i 1459, 1461–1463, 1470, 1472, 1474 1478, 1482, 1483, 1491, 1493, 1496, 1497, 1500, 1502, 1503, Sunan Ibn Majah 1261, 1263, Sunan Abi Dawud 1177, 1178, 1191
  85. Quran 2:22, 6:99, 13:17, 14:32, 15:22, 16:10, 16:65, 18:45, 20:53, 22:63, 23:18, 25:48, 27:60, 29:63, 31:10, 35:27, 39:21, 40:13, 43:11, 50:9
  86. Quran 2:164
  87. Quran 24:43
  88. Quran 78:14
  89. Quran 7:57
  90. Quran 13:12
  91. Quran 31:34
  92. Sahih al-Bukhari 1039, 4697, 7379
  93. Quran 2:19
  94. Sunan at-Tirmidhi 3117, Musnad Ahmad 2483
  95. Quran 57:25
  96. Quran 7:26
  97. Quran 39:6
  98. Sahih Muslim 2839
  99. Quran 25:53, 27:61, 55:19–20
  100. Quran 6:125

r/exmuslim 1h ago

(Question/Discussion) the mental battle of leaving a religion you were raised to never question (islam ofcourse)

Upvotes

let me tell you why i think many people don't leave islam

in islam, if anyone leaves the religion, the ruling is to kill him, you're told the soul of the dying believer is taken very gently by the angel of death while the non believer suffers and the grave is literally described worse than hell, its said in the grave 2 angels appear and they ask you 3 questions, (who is ur God, who ur Prophet and what is your religion) all these things are implanted in your head since childhood, psychologically it scares you so much that leaving the religion is a different topic, you fear even just questioning it yourself, so people never even question it, the ones who do and leave, only they know the religious trauma they go through.

also most of the muslims who learn and memorise the qur'an aren't even arabs, they're indians, bengalis and pakistanis, they don't know what they're reciting, 85% muslims don't know what stuff there is in sahih al bukhari (hadiths)


r/exmuslim 3h ago

(Question/Discussion) Thoughts on Residential Segregation of Muslims?

6 Upvotes

In India, especially in cities like Mumbai, there are many areas in particular which do not allow Muslims to rent or own flats in many apartment buildings, is it valid and what does one think of it from an ex-muslim lens?