The Democrat campaign should be: Orange jumpsuits for all criminals.
Just start listing all the criminals in the Trump admin, including Trump, and promise to prosecute to the fullest extent of the law. And that includes international criminals.
Stop caring so much that people will accuse you of politicizing the justice department. They already do, and they're going to anyway. Don't let it stop you from actually holding criminals in government accountable, FULLY and PUBLICLY accountable.
It’s amazing literally nobody in the Democratic Party has done this since Trump has been in office. The dems are fucked if they can’t rally around the simplest agenda such as “lock up the criminals in our government”. They’re all pussies and going to lose another election in two years because of it. There is no front runner right now and I fear there won’t be for a long while. They won’t have anyone to blame but themselves for another election
lol no AOC would 100% do better than Kamala, she actually has charisma and people know her. Pre-presidential run Kamala was only known for overprosecution of petty crimes and thought she would win simply because she’s not Trump
I don’t disagree, but I don’t have a shred of doubt in my mind that Kamala was even worse than that. She tried to capitalize on the black vote and even that didn’t work
The establishment Democrats are neo-liberals just like the GOP. They only care about the economy doing better and protecting corporate interests with a MINOR interest in doing something for the people that the GOP doesn't share. But they will bail on that minor interest if the economy is better served that way.
Neo-liberals will like a fascists boot if it means the economy will do better. Always been the way.
I'm gonna be honest: if after these four years of Trump and everything his administration has done Democratic voters still sit out on the election because they aren't 💖in love 💖 with the candidate the party has presented, this country is beyond saving and deserves to become an autocracy.
Ok, sure, but if you feel that way, you need to give credit where credit is due. Kinda hard to lock up criminals when basically the entire GOP is fighting you every step of the way
It's 'kinda hard' to enforce anything when the executive (whose job that would be) is enamored with supporting fascists and their policies. Or do you actually believe that all the law enforcement agencies that Trumpists have spent the better part of a decade flooding with their incompetent toadies are going to turn around and say 'welp, it's the dems turns now. We better start following the law again.'
I mean one guy with ppwer commands an army of brainless ghouls that do literally whatever he tells them even if it results in their demise is kind of how the other party works to be fair lol.
Given that they've been totally on board with having the US be the lone "no" vote (aside from Israel) on UN resolutions, I don't think the ICC would be particularly excited about us joining.
Are they trying to win a federal election in the US or show off how moral they are?
It's great to see but this guy is mayor of New York and what works there might not work as a federal strategy. Even with anti-Israel (not pro Palestinian unfortunately) sentiment at an alltime high, international beurocratic orgs are not exactly super popular with the voter base.
You’re getting downvoted but you’re not wrong. Taking stances on the moral high ground, even if I agree with the stance, to alienate a lot of people unfamiliar or uneducated on the issue isn’t a winning strategy while the other side is playing a very dirty version of what they see as a competitive sport.
Dems have been entirely focused on virtue signaling since like 2016
Which has created a deeply frustrating and annoying culture amongst liberals especially in the newer generations that are now becoming adults.
I'm super liberal but this shit annoys the fuck out of me. Anyone else noticed that Reddit has a deeply rooted white knight syndrome? Virtue signaling is the catalyst for that behavior.
The last thing I want to see is this same behavior broadly applied to the entire population. We would never get anything fucking done because everyone would be too busy arguing about who might be offended.
Unfortunately the time to get dirty is long past. Democrats need to take off the gloves and start wrestling with the pigs. The moral high ground has lost us our democracy.
This is a pretty awful take overall. The pressure is what is getting more pro Palestine people in office. You think wanting more progress means always unhappy with progress? Very narrow and ignorant view of the real world.
I'd prefer to not be beholden to foreign laws thanks, we're literally the only country in the world with practicable free speech, what is wrong with you lol
if you wanna slag off europe so bad, go move there
I like how the only thing that Americans have to feel great about left is the ability to freely degrade each other.
Health care that doesn’t ruin your life savings? Functional social safety nets? Functional press, even? It doesn’t matter. What matters the most is that American can maybe in certain narrow situations which most will never encounter spew a slightly more violent bullshit than in Norway. Just don’t spew it near the cop, they might shoot you.
You do understand that the vast majority of us have absolutely no issues with obtaining healthcare that doesn't hurt our life savings, right? Just because a bunch of NEETs on reddit complain once they age out of their parents' healthcare plans doesn't mean it's doom and gloom over here
more europeans die every summer from not having AC than americans die of gun violence (including all gun suicides)
How much debt do you have for the life support on that hill you chose?
There is no credible expert who doesn’t agree that American health care economy is fucking its citizens in a record breaking fashion. Your insurance system is fragmented, highly dependent on employers and/or circumstances and badly proportioned to the costs of healthcare, even adjusting to the salaries. Tens of millions of your citizens are not insured and those who are still not very well protected by it. Medical debt itself is a well known concept for Americans and extremely rare occurrence for the rest of the developed world.
I am scared of getting a serious life threatening disease but not the cost of it. Can you say the same?
Come on, USA can do much much better than that, stop protecting this shit.
I have 0 debt. I'm in my 30s, grew up lower middle class (parents each worked 4+ jobs), inherited nothing. No 'connections.' Most I got from them was help with childcare. I have 4 kids, I own my own home over 2000 sq ft, I have no student loans.
Medical debt is largely fake and can be immediately alleviated by bankruptcy. There's a reason it can be purchased for $0.01 per $1
I have absolutely no fear of being able to afford a life threatening disease because I have insurance, lol.
The USA is doing just fine, most American Redditors are just absolute losers who will never achieve anything
Defending the exploitative and outright stupid American healthcare system just because 'I've got mine' continues to be baffling. Insane how easily you'll defend fucking pharma CEOs and the insurance industry for no reason
You live in a society with others.
One day you'll get free healthcare whether you like it or not. So will millions of people who could be crushed by massive debt from one illness.
I have no love for pharma CEOs and the insurance industry, but my point is entirely that, due to the nature of the US being what it is, it's the best option available. I'm OK with it.
Society not catering to the literal lowest common denominator at all times is not a bug
Abiding by the ICC when they issue warrants for war crimes doesn't mean we have to give up our free speech laws. Those same laws which are constantly under attack by our own government as they try and bring back Mcarthyism.
"just go move there" is the real unbeliveably stupid statement here.
They could just take the moral high ground after being voted into office and having the numbers/ppwer. I’ve been told there’s strategy in politics, but it doesn’t seem like the two parties have even played the same game the last 15+ years.
It's part of a treaty, which has to be ratified by 2/3 of the Senate. Plus they'd need to undo the Hague Invasion Act. I knew of the latter, didn't realize ICC was a treaty. That shit is never getting passed in our lifetimes.
I'm sure some lawyer could find a loophole. I'd send them Clinton, Bush and Obama if the ICC wanted to run trials on them too,
The idea of giving a foreign body oversight over Americans is anathema to most Americans. Giving that body the power to prosecute Americans would be electoral suicide. There's a reason why the Hague Invasion Act passed with bipartisan support.
If the US joined the ICC, there would certainly be a judge determining that constitutional and due process protections were provided, just like any extradition. Habeas corpus is still in the Constitution I believe, notwithstanding this administration’s objections.
And complaining about being swooped up is grand, considering the US history of extraordinary renditions and invasions to arrest leaders. In any case, a US citizen abroad could still be swooped up by foreign governments by simple INTERPOL warrants. It happens all the time. The only difference here is that war crimes, not other types of crimes are considered.
The reason that the US didn't sign onto the ICC is that its process suspends, in most cases, habeas corpus unless the Citizen own nation turns them over (super rare for the ICC to hear those cases rather than a country that is extradited to).
And yes, what the US does to invade a country and wisk away people for trial is bad.
Which is both moral failure on the part of the American people, and a really problematic level of stubborness that ensures those real pieces of shit will never face the justice they deserve.
If Americans want to live in a fair and just world, they're going to have to come to terms with the fact that the world is bigger than America and that there's going to have to be times when non-American courts have authority to level punishments against Americans. You're already forced to accept this reality when an American goes to another country and murders someone there or otherwise breaks the law of another country.
The only difference here is that the ICC deals specifically with such truly heinous crimes that they are almost universally considered crimes against humanity, while simultaneously these crimes are committed; by and large by members of government or those operating in the direct employ of governments and under their direction...
...which means that there is a far smaller chance that these people will ever face justice for their crimes if said justice is solely dependent on the courts run by these same governments. No US President or general is ever likely to face prosecution for warcrimes in a US court of law.
Particularly not if these crimes did not even take place on US soil; which by the way, would have to be the case for the ICC to ever even get involved in the first place... since otherwise it would just be up to American courts to prosecute crimes that happened in America... ergo, there is no loss of sovereignty there whatsoever.
Even in the extremely unlikely event that America did prosecute its own warcriminals, it would never look like an impartial process to the rest of the world. If Netanyahu or Putin were to be tried for warcrimes in Israeli or Russian courts tomorrow, who would genuinely believe that those trials would be fair?
And so, if it's true that most americans will not accept an international court having jurisdiction over such crimes when committed by Americans no matter what... what that's really saying is that Americans are perfectly okay with not living in a fair and just world. That they're perfectly fine with warcrimes being committed by their own countries. And that America absolutely should be treated like the pariah it is fast becoming.
Some things don’t deserve sovereignty, people join this association as a promise to act in expected ways (not shoot your own citizens). While it feels unfair that Iran can shoot its own citizens and not have to worry about arrest or even gets supported when the US attacks it, they didn’t make that “promise” and so already have to put up with the punishment of being isolated from the wealthy world.
If you can withdraw from the treaty and no one will stop you, you have not surrendered sovereignty, you've merely agreed to a consistent set of rules.
The US being part of the ICC would be no more surrendering sovereignty than it would be submissiveness for you to agree with your friends to play Monopoly by the official rules.
Downvote if that triggered your nationalistic insecurity.
I kinda like the whole representative government that nominally is accountable to the people it rules over which includes the courts thank you very much.
I guess you also kinda like missing the point, so I'll repeat it:
If the only consequences of leaving the ICC was that the US got some dirty looks from France or whoever, we never ceded sovereignty in the first place.
Whoever told you we "surrendered sovereignty" sold you a fucking bridge.
If the only consequences of leaving the ICC was that the US got some dirty looks from France or whoever, we never ceded sovereignty in the first place.
Whoever told you “the US joined the ICC” sold you a fucking bridge. How do you leave an organization that you never joined?
The US was originally party to the treaty that created it, then left right before invading Iraq.
But even were that not the case, my point stands. Every current member of the ICC has not "surrendered sovereignty" just because they (currently) agree to a set of international laws and the organization that enforces them. It would be no different for the US: we lose nothing except a reputation for only paying lip service to international cooperation.
The US never ratified the treaty, thus it never joined. It talked about joining then decided against it.
The ICC is fundamentally is incompatible with the rights outlined in the US Constitution. Basic things like double jeopardy, right to a jury, presumption of innocence would all would need to be given up. Then there are rights in the constitution that are questionable under the ICC, like reasonable bail and a speedy trial. I think due process is important. Why do you think due process is worth giving up to join the ICC?
Why do you think the ICC doesn't have due process?
The ICC is intended to complement, not replace, national judicial systems; it can exercise its jurisdiction only when national courts are unwilling or unable to prosecute criminals.
...
The Rome Statute provides that all persons are presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt, and establishes certain rights of the accused and persons during investigations. These include the right to be fully informed of the charges against them; the right to have a lawyer appointed, free of charge; the right to a speedy trial; and the right to examine the witnesses against them.
Iow, the ICC can only even get involved if the national courts aren't prosecuting someone—double jeopardy isn't even possible. The same basic framework of rights of the accused is present. Sounds like due process to me.
The International Criminal Court is an American Institution? You mean the court that we are not a member of and established by a treaty that we explicitly didn't ratify? A court that America doesn't recognize the jurisdiction of in any way? Hell of an American Institution.
which literally invented the concept of international law for crimes against humanity
It literally didn't. The concept first appeared in the second Hague convention of 1899. And the first time such a charge was ever levelled was in 1915, against the Ottoman Empire by the Entente powers; specifically in regards to the Armenian Genocide.
What do you think the I in ICC stands for? If it’s an “American institution” then why would the US have to join it? And to top it off, where is it seated?
I look forward to you not answering any of that because you’re a malfunctioned bot or just said something really really dumb
It's really funny reading this. You guys still don't get that the party serves the billionaires and special interests?
The democrat party joining the ICC is as likely as a unicorn flying up from heaven and shitting out a utopia for us.
You have no federal representation, and you never will. There's only worse vs less worse. Even someone like Sanders would continue imperialism. Sure, a more lite version, but would still never go against billionaire interests like joining the ICC.
Well DSA democrats should, but you will never see that from establishment dems. Establishment dems are just diet MAGA at this point with how aggressively they fight and mud sling leftists THAT ARE IN THEIR PARTY.
America has its own society, and for the most part it works quite well. I don't reckon most Americans much care to have their business pried into by a foreign court.
I'm afraid that our society works so well in part only because of our hegemony over the rest of the world's affairs. Forgive me for giving off the notion that the liberty of being unbothered was ever a two-way street.
And when on earth did we ever do that? My recollection of history is America trying very, very hard to ensure all the best, smartest fascists in fact didn't get shot, and instead invited them to become hard-working, freedom-loving Americans.
Even the democrats aren't dumb enough to willingly surrender US sovereignty to a supranational "court" chaired by non-peer elected judges with zero accountability to US Citizens. The ICC would be weaponized immediately by countries with an agenda against the US.
The Constitution is the strongest institutional document in history and the reason for America's success. Surrendering any rights it affords to US citizens to a foreign institution is an abomination when the US law is perfectly capable of processing war crime. Any effort by the ICC to arrest US citizens should be met warships parked outside their door if they attempt to subvert the Constitution.
I doubt the people making these comments are even American. It’s literally in our Declaration of Independence. Just a few examples:
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
…
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:
The issue is republicans have gone off the absolute fucking deep end, and the democrats seem like the lesser evil. However, take away the republicans entirely, and the democrats would still run this country into the fucking ground.
We're fucked, man. It's really sad to see this level of corruption in our govt. There's such a small amount of politicians who genuinely want to do the right thing, and an ungodly amount of politicians who would kick a puppy in the face if it meant lining their pockets with more money.
Go look at the history of voting and proposed legislation for democrats versus republicans.
I wont deny that there are plenty of shitty democrats but it is not nearly as dire as republicans would have you believe.
It is so much harder to build things than to destroy them. Republicans get into office on hate and fear, which is easy to stoke in a largely uneducated population. Then when dems get into office because people realize life sucks with republican policies, they have to ask to raise taxes just to right what republicans fucked up, let alone making any meaningful progress.
Republicans capitalize on this with, again, fear and hate (your tax dollars are going to illegal immigrants and welfare queens! Why do dems want you to pay for a bridge 1000 miles away from you! If we decrease the military budget we will get invaded!). And so the cycle goes.
If we had laws holding politicians accountable for blatant lies we might be able to get somewhere. Personally I feel we should do this and not even require proof of knowing its a lie: if you are an elected politician its your job to understand shit you preach about. If you say something demonstrably false you should have harsh repercussions. You have a whole team of aides to verify claims.
Im a Democrat and I do not want that. The ICC is just Europes last vestigage of Colonialism. Its basically just used to bully former colonies and weaker global south nations. We are fully capable to prosecuting war criminals in house.
We are fully capable to prosecuting war criminals in house.
Right, because everyone who was recommended for courts martial in the Peers report on the My Lai massacre spent their days in military prison, right?
No? You mean of the all of the officers recommended for courts martial literally only one high ranking officer actually truly faced a court material and that piece of shit was fucking acquitted? And the guy who was convicted only did 3 years of the life sentence he was given?
The United States is not capable of prosecuting war criminals in house. The United States military isn't even fucking capable of prosecuting members of the military who rape other members of the military. What do you mean "fully capable"?
There are so many reasons this is a bad idea if you prefer the US to be the world’s police. If you are okay with isolationism, it might work. Otherwise, the U.S. is so intertwined in the fabric of the world overtly and covertly that to sign up for ICC would let the world run amok. That and the ICC is a joke. Enforcing things requires force. What force do they have?
unpopular president, cost of living crisis, ai fears, war in iran
somehow i don't think ratifying the Rome Statute is gonna move the needle for voters. is there a single person out there that cares about the ICC that wasn't already gonna vote democrat anyway?
And to be clear, I agree that we should be part of the ICC, i just think democrats should be running on affordability, healthcare, etc. and not arcane international applesauce
Ya it would be awesome if the United States handed its sovereignty over to a coalition of countries weaker than it. I see no ways that could end badly.
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u/SpiderSlitScrotums 18h ago
The Democrats really need to put joining the ICC on their 2026 and 2028 platforms.