r/paganism • u/churchofthemoon • 16h ago
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r/paganism • u/ElectronicWriting620 • 18h ago
💭 Discussion Question
So I’m a devotee of the goddess Lilith. And just recenlty I’ve been starting to worship Gaia. And I’ve also been getting paranoia about them not wanting to work with me for no reason. Ik it’s bullshit and they do wanna work with me but I just can’t shake the feeling. So my questions are has any of this happened to anyone of you guys before and what are some ways to cope?
r/paganism • u/Only--East • 20h ago
🤲 Offering Charity Ideas for Hades Offering?
I often pick up loose change I find on the sidewalk and offer it to Hades given his loose association with wealth. He has a skull shaped piggy bank on my altar for it. I've been doing it for a while now and I was inspired to donate it to a charity in his realm. I thought about something surrounding funeral rites or something about bringing deceased soldiers home or identifying Jane/John Does but I can't come up with any. If anyone has some good charity suggestions I'd be so grateful 🙏
r/paganism • u/PrudentSheepherder72 • 22h ago
💭 Discussion La Santa Muerte and getting attacked for my faith
Santa Muerte (Our Lady of Holy Death) A personification of death and a blend and Indigenous and Catholic practices and imagery
Context: So I’m a first gen Mexican American in the Midwest, throughout my life is always been drawn to the “darker” and “eerie” things that people find unsettling I guess. I can’t find the words to explain it but when I discovered her on my own, it was like an instinctual like gut feeling that felt refreshing as I was so drawn to it. The more I looked into it the more I felt connected to her. Not to look cool or for the aesthetic or anything but i genuinely feel her energy and presence.
I deeply respect Catholicism, and my own connection with Santa Muerte has actually brought me closer to the Catholic faith. I have an altar in my room and wear a rosary
Growing up, my father actually had a statue of her in the house, I’ve never really payed attention to it nor did he ever pushed his beliefs onto me. He’s actually very critical of Christianity and believes that death is the true force. My mother on the other hand had always wanted us to go to church and recently converted to evangelicalism and I supported her decision and actually attended church with her. She respects my beliefs but my dad is very critical of her unfortunately which I don’t like. My dad’s mother is actually a devout Catholic ironically
We are hardworking people, contribute to our community and stay out of trouble
Saying all this so say that I have an account on social media where I post about Mexican history, culture and religion and when I posted about La Santa Muerte, I’ve been getting attacked and belittled on the comments from Catholics calling her demonic and that the church doesn’t recognize her saying she’s not a saint. I tried to explain how it’s okay for them to not accept her but doesn’t give them the right to attack someone for it just because they see the cartels and other lowlifes worship her
I’m very critical of Freemasonry, Protestants and Judaism but I’m not attacking or insulting people over it. Catholics had earned their distan too but that doesn’t mean I’m not open to their beliefs. Idk whenever I try to articulate this people just say I sound like a New Ager and not to think too deep about it
r/paganism • u/SwimWise5809 • 1d ago
📚 Seeking Resources | Advice Thoughts on these books?
So I have been researching Paganism for awhile and have been curious to start practicing or at the least know more. I happened to at work pass these books in a witch museum and I did some research before plucking them off the shelves but i didn’t see any bad reviews. I’ve been told there are some books that say things that can be very harmful to paganism as a whole or indigenous people and the culture that these practices originate from and i was just curious if any of these were particularly bad or if anyone had any experience with them.
r/paganism • u/sidhe_elfakyn • 1d ago
So you want to become a priest(ess)
Awesome! What does that mean?
No, seriously. I've seen many posts from people who want to become a priest(ess) and everyone's coming at it from a different angle. The replies in those posts tend to be equally diverse. People will say:
- A priest is a social role; it's something your community bestows upon you.
- A priest is a position of service to deity and/or community, so you need to be doing some kind of service to one or both of them for it to count
- A priest is defined by what you do, not by a title
- A priest is a title conferred within a specific group or tradition and it has no meaning outside of that tradition
- In Paganism, everyone is their own priest
- In Paganism, people generally don't want priests between them and their deity
- There is specific training or a curriculum to follow when you become a priest
- There is no specific training or curriculum to follow when you become a priest
As you can see, some or all of those answers contradict each other. They're not wrong, it's just that different people have different definitions for what a priest(ess) is or does.
So, what does being a priest(ess) mean to you? What do you understand by priest(ess)? Why do you want to become one?
Here's some ideas to get those gears turning.
Do you follow a specific path?
Different Pagan religions - Wicca, Hellenism, Heathenry - are going to have different ideas of what a priest is or does. I've seen people ask about becoming a Hiereus or Gothi. The thing is, even those groups are fairly large and diverse, meaning there's no universal definition.
If you are in an organized group or coven, they might have a specified path to becoming a priest, perhaps with a curriculum and training. Congratulations! You have a way forward.
Do you want to be ordained?
Ordination is generally only necessary if you want to officiate legally recognized ceremonies such as marriages etc.
Different countries and states have different requirements for what counts. Some only require some generic ordination without any training (like the ULC). Some require you to have undergone training and you have to be ordained through one of the state's approved religious organizations. If you only want to officiate a friend's wedding or whatever, congratulations! You have a way forward.
You might still want to take celebrancy training. Groups such as OBOD or Cherry Hill Seminary offer celebrancy/ministry training. There are others. Read the curriculum before you sign up. It might not be what you're interested in.
(See the pattern? You need to know what you want.)
Being ordained doesn't make you a priest, except perhaps in the most technical sense of the word. I'm ordained through the ULC. So is Stephen Colbert. So can you. It takes 5 minutes. That's not what defines my work as priestess.
What do you actually want to do?
So you want to be a game developer. Awesome! What kind of game do you want to make? You don't know? Why do you want to be a game developer then?
Okay, enough snark. I've written about priesthood in the past, and I'll go off the broad idea that priesthood is about what you do, not who you are. Here are some things that priests do, shamelessly copy-pasted from an older writing of mine:
- Connecting and communicating with your deity/deities, serving them in whatever way your relationship entails
- Helping others on their path with resources, knowledge, advice etc.
- Performing academic research, serving as a repository of knowledge
- Creating and organizing ritual, leading prayer
- Acting as an oracle for deity
- Providing spiritual care, crisis care, emotional support etc.
- Officiating life rites such as weddings or handfastings
- And many more
These generally fall into either service to deity (or other spiritual beings), or service to community. Usually both.
You don't need to do all of these things to be a priest, but these are the kinds of things priests do. Most priests I know do most of these things, because Paganism is broad and we tend to be generalists. But that doesn't mean you need to do all of those things.
Does anything from that list tickle your fancy? Does anything scream, "yes, that's me!" Congratulations! You have a way forward. Learn how to do those things. Find resources on the particular thing you want to do (it's much easier than finding generic priesthood training which may or may not have stuff you're not interested in); find a community of people who do that thing. Find a group of advanced practitioners to compare notes with (we have one in the subreddit's official Discord sərver, which AutoMod will helpfully link down below. We meet biweekly.)
And, of course, specific paths will have a more well-defined list of things priests in that path do. Do your research!
Okay, but you never told me how to actually become a priest.
You already do all the things I've listed above? Ask your deity if priest is a title for you! Terms and conditions apply.
Ok, ok, I said I won't be snarky. But still! Priesthood is generally going to be:
- Doing the work
- Being recognized by deity
- Being recognized by community
Some people are going to be doing the work and then deity/community will start recognizing them as priests. Your deity might send "priest stuff" to do, for example you might be in the right place at the right time to help someone on their path. Or someone will seek you out with questions about a deity. Or an opportunity to lead a ritual will appear. These things arise from you doing the work, they won't just happen on their own.
Other people will decide that they want to be priests, and they make commitments to deity that they're going to do priest things. Maybe they will talk to their deity and discuss what they want to do. Maybe their deity will have specific tasks for them. Maybe they'll take oaths of priesthood. (If you're priest to a deity, it's good to be able to communicate with that deity, either directly, through meditation, or divination, or some other way! You don't need a god phone. But you need to have a good idea of the work you can do and how that fits into your broader deity work.)
Some people just call themselves priests and their deity goes, "oh you're my priest? ok. I'll give you priest work." That might sound awesome. Or it might sound terrifying. It's generally better to know what you want to do than just "I'll do whatever!"
And, ultimately, recognition by community. If you have a defined path to priesthood within your group/coven, there's generally a defined point when you're recognized as a priest(ess). There's usually going to be some form of initiation ritual, a well-defined moment when you "become" a priest. If your path is more nebulous, you might find that your recognition as priest comes more gradually, as people trust you more and more with "priest stuff" (see above).
When can I actually call myself a priest?
If you're part of a group or coven that has a well-defined path, blah blah blah. You get it.
If you're not, it might feel weird to make the call yourself. Here's some possible things to consider:
- Are you already doing the work to the extent that it would be considered inaccurate not to call yourself a priest? If you're already leading ritual, doing oracular work, know a lot about your deity and their myths, and people routinely come to you for help, and deity recognizes and trusts you with important work, perhaps you can just up and call yourself a priest now. People are either going to accept it or they're gonna ignore it.
- Are you at the point where you understand your path enough to make formal commitments to becoming a priest (with a well-defined understanding of what that entails for you!)? You can sketch out a list of things you want to do, and once you feel like you're almost ready to do them (you'll never be 100% ready), you can plan yourself an initiation ritual where you bring your deity and/or trusted members of the community for a formal passage into your role as priest (perhaps with some oaths of priesthood).
- Is your deity or community screaming in your ear to call yourself a priest already? Self-explanatory.
- You can just be your own priest. There are no rules. "Priest(ess)" is a title that can mean anything or nothing. If you don't care about the title meaning something, just call yourself one. It's fine.
Weird and unusual paths to becoming a priest.
Clickbait title: "but none of these apply to me!"
I serve as priestess to an unnamed Storm Goddess. The path that got me here is long and weird, and I like to think it makes for a good story. But the broad strokes are this: I reached out to the Storm Goddess; She responded. I connected with her, I learned about her, I learned about her values; I learned how to live those values. In time, I started writing rituals (or learned rituals from her). I wrote about her; I wrote about storms, and about storm practices. I became involved in the community. I met other people who were curious about her.
And then one day, after a series of weird and unusual events, she put me in a position where I had to serve as priest for someone, ready or not. If there's one single event that marks that transition for me, it's that. I've never taken oaths of priesthood, but I took other oaths. Shortly after that event, I started referring to myself as a priest, because if other people want to connect with the Storm Goddess, they should know that I am making myself available to help with that.
Early on, way before that event, I wanted to know how I can be a priest for her. I never got a straight answer. It was an answer I had to find myself.
Even if you have a community with a well-defined path to priesthood, it is an answer that you have to give yourself. Is that the path for you? What path to priesthood do you want to take?
That path may not reveal itself all at once.
Resources
- My other writings on priesthood: 1 2 3. Another Reddit thread
- A Practical Guide to Pagan Priesthood by Lora O'Brien. I don't usually recommend Lora's other work, but this is a good book.
- The Path of Paganism by John Beckett has a chapter on priesthood. Also a couple of blog posts by John Beckett: Priesthood as Service to the Gods and Priesthood Over A Lifetime
- Dedicant, Devotee, Priest by Stephanie Woodfield. Take with a dose of discernment.
- Books about specific deities, if you want to become a priest to a specific deity. Take with a massive dose of discernment. It is not the only way.
r/paganism • u/SadYogurtcloset2341 • 1d ago
📚 Seeking Resources | Advice Will we ever become big again?
Christianity Islam Judaism all of billions of members while paganism is low probably in thousands will be ever become a large religion again maybe even a pagan state? Like Israel but pagan so it's better it's sad seeing us so little we are a beautiful religion shouldn't we deserve recognition
r/paganism • u/TheAgent1860 • 1d ago
💭 Discussion Heathen here (Norse pagan)
I have questions for Hellenic pagans, what got you into believing he Greek gods and/or were you taught to believe then growing up? What is it like with the Greek gods? What are your altars like compared to ours? And one less serious question is Greek mythology mostly Zeus was horny? ...(Sorry if it's offensive I outbit here as a joke question)
r/paganism • u/bunnyboy_01 • 1d ago
📚 Seeking Resources | Advice The Serpent as a divine being
r/paganism • u/UrsusofMichigan • 2d ago
💮 Deity | Spirit Work Treating deities as therapists (?)
I've been a pagan since 2005 or so. I've always noticed an undercurrent to online Paganism that's become especially prominent in the TikTok era.
And that is the idea that gods are there to teach people life's important lessons, to make you face your fears, to turn your life around, and otherwise act as personal counselors .. or, in so many words, to act as therapists.
This seems especially prevalent with some of the more popular goddesses out there like Hecate and Morrighan. "If you work with them, they will forge you under their anvil and change your life." Although there is a milder version where just about any deity can teach you something. For instance, Aphrodite can teach you to overcome body dysphoria while Ares can teach anger management. Dionysus teaches you to embrace your queerness and come out of the closet. Etc.
And it seems for a lot of people, the point of pagan religion or "deity work" is to learn these lessons.
Now, I got into mysticism and have had one or two life changing experiences myself. But generally speaking I leave religion to gods and therapy to licensed humans. The idea of mixing them seems a bit strange to me.
I'm also a little skeptical every newbie pagan out there is a born mystic and suddenly establishes a telepathic link to the gods where they get nightly counseling on the astral realm.
Is it more likely that people are just deifying their internal monologue, their subconscious chatter? Is it even possible that deep down inside, they're aware of this. But if they pretend it's a deity, they'll listen to it, whereas if they see it merely as a subconscious dialogue they are more apt to ignore it?
What are your thoughts?
r/paganism • u/PersimmonWeird7787 • 2d ago
💮 Deity | Spirit Work wanted to know more about Sekhmet, has anyone worked with her?
i feel very curious and i want to know about her. if any of you have worked with Sekhmet, i would love to know from you guys about your experience.
and how did you guys start working with her....like how would u setup your rituals to work with her?
r/paganism • u/SadYogurtcloset2341 • 1d ago
📚 Seeking Resources | Advice How do I become a Hiereus?
I have been a pagan for a while now and in case I ever wanted to expand how do I become a pagan more pacifically a hellenist pagan priest AKA hiereus?
r/paganism • u/OkSupermarket8934 • 3d ago
📚 Seeking Resources | Advice What to do with pocket shrine that was made for someone as a gift, but not being able to gift it anymore?
Hello. I'm very new to Reddit, so I apologize if this isn't the right forum to write into.
Anyway, I had a friend who is pagan. They work with Loki and Apollo and I wanted to make them two pocket altars of said deities as a gift. I made the Loki one, including symbolic colours, herbs etc. However before I could finish the one for Apollo, the friend and I drifted apart and I couldn't send them. I don't work with Loki, so I won't use it or want it in my stuff, but I also don't want to just throw it away, worried I could offend.
Any advice on what to respectfully do with the pocket altar would be appreciated 🥲
r/paganism • u/EfficientCabinet8784 • 2d ago
💭 Discussion I don't like using bowls for my gods do you guys know what red Solo cups is and that they could be cleansed and thrown away respectfully... Do you guys think this is disrespectful or am I just lazy
r/paganism • u/Phoenix_Ray528 • 3d ago
📚 Seeking Resources | Advice How do work through my religious trauma?
I apologize if this is the wrong place to post this but I didn't know where else to turn. I'm trying to work through my religious trauma. I'm Egyptian-Eclectic Pagan and have been for about 4 years now but one thing I still hold onto from my childhood is church. I know plenty of Pagans that attend an occasional church service here and there. But I literally have a fear of missing it. Like if I don't go to church on Sunday something bad is going to happen. And I don't even believe in a Christian God. Does anyone know how I can move past this fear? I'm not going this Sunday as a kind of exposure therapy but I'm severely anxious!
r/paganism • u/AdOutrageous3928 • 5d ago
💭 Discussion Meeting the Father
Acrylic on canvas 12×16
I was visited in a dream... Several dreams... Ok, every single dream that Friday night.
The dream starts inconspicuously enough, I recall being of even mind. Simply sitting near a rivers edge with thick black clouds surrounding me, but I'm not in a state of depression about it. In fact they feel normal, I'm not giving them a second thought.. So I sit there, in even temper not doing much but I am in a state of reception. I am paying attention.
Then I hear it... Is that.. laughter? There's a distant thunderous laughter coming from the sky and it sounds like it's getting closer! And then I see it, there's a small part in the clouds and far away I can see.. is that a shooting star heading right towards me? Whoa! Wait a minute! That's not a star! That looks like a guy! What the hell? There is some massive creature hurling towards me from the heavens while thunderous echos of booming laughter reverberate throughout the landscape. He's about to land!!
And in a flash, like a bolt of lightning there is a massive polar bear of a man standing right in front of me. He's right in front of me yet I cannot grasp his entire form in one glance. I can only see parts at a time, not just because of physical size but for some other reason... I can see that he is absolutely massive with a radiant blue glow about him, his face though... I can't see any definitive features but I can feel an amazing amount of bliss radiating from it.
And before another second can pass, he let's out a thunderous laugh just over my shoulder and in an instant the clouds part behind me, he does it again, and again, and again, until all the storm clouds are gone and the clear blue radiant sky is what's left.
I have never felt a power like this, there is no violence to it at all, it feels more like the most intense feeling of love and joy mixed together. I am in absolute awe.
And then it dawns on me as I think to myself is this Jove? Is that what Jove means? Joy+Love? No doubt, while I'm thinking this all to myself a message was beamed into my psyche, "Father". Yes, each fiber of my being feels this. The names, the faces, let's keep it simple. Call me Father. I don't remember every detail, there was so much to take in and I woke up incredibly energized in the middle of it all.
This happened several times that night. I'm still learning from it all.
r/paganism • u/under_the_ash • 5d ago
📊 Article Sharing an interesting perspective on the Wheel of the Year
Found in the book by K. Menshikova “Health Through the Power of the Elements”. Let's share our thoughts.
"PERIOD OF BIRTH FROM KUPALA TO LAMMAS
June 20-23 - August 1
People born during the period when all elements are at their peak, when they manifest without limitations in the world, space, and time, possess similar qualities: everything in their lives is at maximum. They do not recognize half-measures, living by the principle: either everything or nothing.
From birth, they are given many things with ease. They learn well and without effort as children. They easily make acquaintances. They fall in love easily and break up just as effortlessly. Their feelings are almost always mutual — even if they lack traditional beauty, their strength and charm form an incredible charisma that leaves no one indifferent. Their health at birth may not be particularly strong (although congenital pathologies are usually absent), but if they do fall ill, they recover very quickly. They become sick intensely, strongly, but for a very short time.
The consciousness of those born during this period senses from birth that the natural world will always support them. This feeling is so familiar that it removes their fear of others and allows them to get involved in adventures from which, unfortunately, they don’t always emerge victorious."
r/paganism • u/sidhe_elfakyn • 5d ago
💮 Deity | Spirit Work Little things to do to connect with storms
I'm devoted to an unnamed Storm Goddess and one of the biggest parts of my practice is connecting with storms, wherever and whenever they are. But not everything has to be this big and complicated ritual; so, here are some ideas for little things you can do in your practice to connect with storms.
1. Wind meditation. Go outside and feel the wind. Let it pass over you and through you, taking away your worries, until it's almost as if your entire body is made of wind. Feel yourself floating and flying with the air currents up in the sky, and feel the freedom that that gives as they twist and turn and just fly.
2. Storms make for great liminal spaces. Walk around a forest or park (if it's safe from lightning!) and follow the paths that you're drawn towards (perhaps where the wind is coming from, or where the wind is pushing you towards). In my experience, the same places during a storm gain a liminal and otherworldly quality, as if you're between worlds or even stepping into the otherworld. I used to do this a lot when I lived next to a park.
3. Just open the window and let the storm in. I usually say a phrase similar to "Storm Goddess, I invite you in my home." and take the air in.
4. Sing or play a wind instrument together with the storm. Since air is breath and air is a big element of the storm, there's a feeling of oneness and connection you can achieve that way, focusing your breath and your music to be part of the bigger storm around you.
5. Let the storm take your worries away. When I'm feeling stressed or anxious, I like to step outside in the storm and let the wind and rain wash my troubles away. Sometimes I ask the Storm Goddess for help and protection. But even from a sensory perspective, you can focus on the sounds and the touch and the movement of the storm to ground you and bring you into the present. Sometimes all it takes is to step out for a bit and feel the wind on my skin to connect.
6. Collect storm water. Get a few jars out and collect some storm water; you can use it later for offerings or spellwork. Just remember that if you drink it, make sure you boil and purify it adequately first to get rid of both bacteria and possible heavy metals/other impurities. Having storm water also helps you connect with storm energy when a storm isn't around!
7. Less of a little thing, but do a storm ritual. I've described one here.
8. Connect with the Storm Goddess. Obviously you don't have to do this; but people have asked me how to connect with her before, so if you're curious, here's how I do it. Go out and feel the wind (and the rain, and the thunder...). Expand your awareness to the movements of the wind high up in the atmosphere and all around you. Sense the energy and life force of the storm. The storm is alive, and as you open up your consciousness to the movements of the storm, feel the energy within and beyond the storm. There you will feel the energy of the Storm Goddess. Say hi to her.
I wrote a similar list years ago as a comment on a now-deleted post. As I go through my practice, I'm reminded of the little things I do in between the big workings, so I wanted to revive this as a post. Things have grown in my practice since then, but the little things still bring me joy.
I'd love to hear how some of you connect with storms, or if you have other storm things that you do in your practice.
r/paganism • u/Ari_Pocari1312 • 5d ago
💮 Deity | Spirit Work Forming a connection with Selûne
Dia daoibh! I just have a question as too my connection with Selûne. I recently did my first moon ritual on tuesday with the new moon, and I feel a connection with a moon deity. My thoughts and intuition are pushing me towards Selûne as that diety which raised some questions. I know Selûne mainly only exists in the Forgotten Realms, but would it be possible to worship her as an actual goddess? Or should I look more into the dieties that inspired her? Thanks and Sláinte!
r/paganism • u/Easy-Conversation745 • 6d ago
📚 Seeking Resources | Advice Website search
Hello! I was on a long search for a website and I couldn’t find it so i feel like I should try here. One time I was hanging out with my sister in law (who is also pagan) and we did like this reading (not tarot) sort of type thing. It had a very very basic UI, and it was extremely easily to navigate. It asked you your birthdate, time of birth, where you were born and it was all free. When you gave it all the information it would give you a title and emoji with it, with the titles being like what kind of person you are, how you communicate with people, people you would click more with and it also went over nsfw topics. I don’t remember anything that was on the “reading” I got. If any of you know anything close to it please tell me.
r/paganism • u/xsick_wendigo • 6d ago
📚 Seeking Resources | Advice New French celtic pagan
Hello!
I'm french and want to learn more about celtic paganism. Do you have any media about french celtic traditions?
Thank you !
r/paganism • u/thenotoriouspuk • 7d ago
📚 Seeking Resources | Advice taking the deity plunge (ex-christian anxieties)
so first off, a little bit about me and my situation: raised in american protestant church in a very conservative area, left it around age 14 for atheism/agnosticism. i’m now an out bisexual thirtysomething woman married to an english catholic lesbian, and i’ve spent the last five or so years dabbling about trying various eclectic pagan paths. i’ve done some witchcraft, researched various pantheons, thought a lot about where i’m drawn to and what i consider worthwhile for me in religion and spirituality. and i have mostly worked through most of my ex-christian baggage, helped along the way by meeting compassionate christians such as my wife. but there’s one big one left that’s terrifying me, and that is the idea of actually opening myself to the idea of pagan deities being real.
this is not founded in skepticism or rationality, as far as i’ve determined in analyzing the fear, it’s 100% ex-christian fear of hell/eternal damnation/etc. which i rationally know is absurd; even a lot of christians don’t believe in the doctrine of hell, i abandoned belief in hell before i abandoned christianity myself. but i guess traumas aren’t rational like that. i want to be able to open myself to at least exploring other deities, making the choice for myself and by myself to see what i believe. i just can’t get past this particular fear, and so i am here asking if anyone else here has felt like this, and if there is any advice they have or resources they would suggest. (and yes, i do have a therapist, and while i really like her religious trauma isn’t her forte, alas). thanks in advice if anyone has anything to share.
r/paganism • u/M2t0 • 9d ago
💭 Discussion My favorite spot was destroyed...
Yesterday I was at my favorite spot in the woods at Nuremberg (Germany), a place that was so magical for me and where I could feel a strong connection to nature and the gods. I was shocked to see that a harvester had gone through and destroyed everything. You can even see how my favorite tree bled afterward (a white ring of resin)... It's truly awful. I immediately made a smoking ritual in honor for the tree spirit. It really makes me angry, but on the other hand, I also buy wooden furniture in stores... so the wood has to come from somewhere. I wish I could have shared this with someone there who could relate, but unfortunately, I don't know anyone who understands... So I want to ask you: Has this ever happened to you? How did you deal with and think about it?