I wish to stay anonymous because of what's at stake for me, but I am a 20-year-old rap artist Im high functioning autistic with a suspected iq higher than alot of my non-autistic peers upcoming grind every day and I am getting noticed. I'm on discord almost every rapper I meet on there and Irl turns into a collab I record produce mix and master for myself and others I even film and edit music videos I have thousands of dollars in recording gear and I'm working on getting a new place because my JW mom don't respect me and criticizes my goals. It got worse when the elders found out and my mom is trying to force me to work with them after she told me to appeal the removal from the congregation decision listening to her will cost me my non jw friends I've made and my music career Ive worked years to build I'm not willing to lose all of that for a religion that I feel belittles me and calls it love but at the same time my mom is making it very hard for me and is threatening to withdraw all support If I get removed from the congregation saying love is conditional what should I do I cannot go back to jw it would kill me they even called my high autistic intelligence an illness Jehovah needs to cure

Chosen Virtue Builds Character. Compelled Virtue Builds Compliance.

There's a version of goodness that comes with a deadline.

Tuesday meeting. Saturday service. Report in by the first of the month.

They called it devotion. It was mostly attendance.

No one held a gun to my head. They never needed to. The arrangement was quieter and it worked better. Step out of line and you lose your family, your friends, your standing, everyone you've ever been close to. You don't have to threaten a man when everyone he loves is the punishment.

Under that arrangement I did a great many good things. I was reliable. Generous. Showed up when showing up was inconvenient. I would like very much to tell you those things were mine.

But here's the test I can't get around: strip out the threat, the surveillance, the social cost. What's still standing?

Ask that out loud around Witnesses (or any group of believers) in a car group and you'll get a very honest answer. I've heard it more than once. If I didn't believe Jehovah was watching, I'd just do whatever I wanted. And then, unprompted, the itemized list: I'd leave my wife. I'd sleep with whoever. I'd lie, I'd take what wasn't mine, I'd stop caring what any of it cost anyone else.

They offer this as proof of God.

It's a confession. A woman has just told you that the only thing between her and walking out on her family is a pair of eyes she believes are on her. She isn't describing her faith. She’s describing her character, and it's hungry.

That isn't evidence of virtue. It's evidence of surveillance.

Seneca doesn't leave room to negotiate here. Not less noble. Not noble with an asterisk. Nothing. Which is a harder line than it looks, because it means the thirty years of good behavior don't count in her ledger. Same conduct, down to the decimal. Different person underneath entirely.

Compulsion produces obedience. It has never once produced character.

The first thing you learn walking out of a system like that is that the opposite of being told what to do is not doing whatever I want. That's the same appetite those believers were confessing to, just off its leash. A different master with worse manners.

Freedom is having the power to choose otherwise and choosing honesty anyway. The harder conversation. The returned wallet. The phone call you'd pay money to avoid. Not because anyone's counting — nobody's counting — but because you decided what kind of person you are and you'd like to keep being that.

That question is worse than the one I was raised on, and I want to be honest about it. What am I required to do?has an answer. You can look it up. Someone will gladly print it for you. Who do I freely choose to become? has no publication, no elder, no answer key, no slip to turn in at month's end. You answer it, then you live with the answer, then you answer it again tomorrow.

Every noble deed is voluntary. Which means the only virtues that were ever mine are the ones nobody could make me perform.

No one has a gun to your head.

It was always going to be you.Chosen Virtue Builds Character. Compelled Virtue Builds Compliance.

"Nothing is noble if it's done unwillingly or under compulsion. Every noble deed is voluntary." —Seneca, Moral Letters, 66.16b

There's a version of goodness that comes with a deadline.

Tuesday meeting. Saturday service. Report in by the first of the month.

They called it devotion. It was mostly attendance.

No
one held a gun to my head. They never needed to. The arrangement was
quieter and it worked better. Step out of line and you lose your family,
your friends, your standing, everyone you've ever been close to. You
don't have to threaten a man when everyone he loves is the punishment.

Under
that arrangement I did a great many good things. I was reliable.
Generous. Showed up when showing up was inconvenient. I would like very
much to tell you those things were mine.

But here's the test I can't get around: strip out the threat, the surveillance, the social cost. What's still standing?

Ask
that out loud around Witnesses (or any group of believers) in a car
group and you'll get a very honest answer. I've heard it more than once.
If I didn't believe Jehovah was watching, I'd just do whatever I wanted. And then, unprompted, the itemized list: I'd leave my wife. I'd sleep with whoever. I'd lie, I'd take what wasn't mine, I'd stop caring what any of it cost anyone else.

They offer this as proof of God.

It's a confession.
A woman has just told you that the only thing between her and walking
out on her family is a pair of eyes she believes are on her. She isn't
describing her faith. She’s describing her character, and it's hungry.

That isn't evidence of virtue. It's evidence of surveillance.

Seneca doesn't leave room to negotiate here. Not less noble. Not noble with an asterisk. Nothing.
Which is a harder line than it looks, because it means the thirty years
of good behavior don't count in her ledger. Same conduct, down to the
decimal. Different person underneath entirely.

Compulsion produces obedience. It has never once produced character.

The first thing you learn walking out of a system like that is that the opposite of being told what to do is not doing whatever I want. That's the same appetite those believers were confessing to, just off its leash. A different master with worse manners.

Freedom is having the power to choose otherwise and choosing honesty anyway.
The harder conversation. The returned wallet. The phone call you'd pay
money to avoid. Not because anyone's counting — nobody's counting — but
because you decided what kind of person you are and you'd like to keep
being that.

That question is worse than the one I was raised on, and I want to be honest about it. What am I required to do?has an answer. You can look it up. Someone will gladly print it for you. Who do I freely choose to become?
has no publication, no elder, no answer key, no slip to turn in at
month's end. You answer it, then you live with the answer, then you
answer it again tomorrow.

Every noble deed is voluntary. Which means the only virtues that were ever mine are the ones nobody could make me perform.

No one has a gun to your head.

It was always going to be you.

I can’t help but think that of all the things they could change next without causing upheaval I’d have to imagine that Chaperones would be it.

Disfellowshipping relaxation was a paradigm shift, removal of counting field service hours too, and hell I never thought they’d budge on blood.

It’s an outrageously antiquated arrangement based on cultural norms in certain countries (most of which have grown out of this arrangement) and with that they could also implicitly change the rule on unmarried people living together. Both of which are a unscriptural rule, and as per usual PIMIs will be able to make the defense that it was always a conscience matter since there was never a hard rule, despite it being cracked down on hard throughout the years.

It will make them look much more moderate in the eyes of Gen Z and millennials, and elders and congregation wouldn’t have to concern themselves with the actions of unmarried couples. Whether they were young adults or a couple in their 40s it was always weird as hell.

It also brings the bonus of not imposing the extreme rule upon people who are only studying.

Chapter 33 Have Another Beer and Forget the Whole Thing

I saw Debbie Stillman when she and her family came through on tour in September 1972. She was standing there in front of the ink room. It was love at first sight. Don’t ask me why, it just was.

Our strange Bethel courtship started with me trying to meet Debbie after I saw her on tour. Her brother Mike (the same Mike who was beating the horse-hide glue earlier) worked in the ink room next to my elevator. We were not good friends. He was just a little too “country” for me and too much on the self-righteous side too.

Anyway, one beautiful Saturday morning in September, I was walking to the factory complex. Mike happened to be walking with me, and he said, “God, I would give anything to get out of this city on a day like today.”

I said, “Well, I have a car and no place to go, and you have a place to go and no car.”

He wasn’t quite sure of me, but next thing I knew, we were on our way to Rhode Island. The car was full with him and his four friends.

Needless to say, it was a great weekend. Debbie, who had just turned nineteen, was happy that her brother finally brought someone home with him who wasn’t a complete hillbilly, like her brother’s friends.

I think she liked me as much as I liked her. We started to write to each other.

She lived in Newport, Rhode Island, with her mother, Elaine, and her stepfather, Ben Reagan. They had just moved to Rhode Island from Louisiana. One of the reasons for the move was that they wouldn’t make Ben an Elder in Louisiana. What a surprise. Ben was a real winner. He looked and acted just like Gomer Pyle from the TV show, only dumber. He would walk around the house and say things like, “You’re fat, I’m fat, we’re all fat.” Or he would say, “I know one thing about Debbie, she is tired.” He would say that about thirty times a day. He would pat everyone on the head, like a small child. I’m not sure what that was all about.

He was definitely three clams shy of a clambake. He, like so many other Witnesses back then, was a janitor. So of course he would make great elder material.

They had decided to move to where the need is greater, just like so many other Jehovah’s Witnesses did back then. Plus, they were hoping that Ben could finally get promoted to Elder-hood and the ruling class. The move also allowed them to be closer to their son, Mike, who was just one-hundred-and-eighty miles away at Bethel.

At the time, Rhode Island had the worst ratio of Jehovah’s Witnesses to normal people in the country. The ratio was one Jehovah’s Witness to fourteen-hundred people.

Of course, about a year later, after they moved to Rhode Island, they made Ben this mental giant, an Elder.

The wisdom from this man was amazing. I’ll never forget the day I was sitting in the living room with him. He received a phone call from some poor black Sister named Betty Evans who was in his congregation. She had been crying her eyes out because she just got the crap beat out of her by her non-Witness husband.

This is what Ben the Elder said to her: “Well, you must have done something really wrong for him to get so mad. Just have another beer and forget the whole thing.”

There you have it. “Just have another beer and forget the whole thing.” That could be the answer to a lot of life’s problems, but I think she was looking for just a little more guidance. I just sat there. I couldn’t believe it. This guy couldn’t pour sand out of a boot if the directions were written on the heel, and he was leading the flock of god.

The leaders of the Jehovah’s Witnesses told us many times over that the Holy Spirit puts these guys in power. I would have to say that this is one of the biggest lies the Jehovah’s Witnesses promote. After my time at Bethel and my fifty years in the organization, I know that is definitely not the case. These guys are not chosen by god. No, they are chosen by the simple fact of whether or not they are liked by the other elders or the powers-that-be and nothing more. They are promoted to their positions of power the same way corporations and other religions promote their leaders. It’s called politics and some serious ass kissing!

Yes, of course, they are put into positions of power by god himself….Really?

There were virtually no college-educated Witnesses back then. There were many Witnesses with little, and in some cases, no education. This didn’t stop them from becoming Elders in their local Kingdom Halls. That’s right, you could be working on a garbage truck by day and be one of the leaders who ran the whole congregation at night. Ben was the perfect example of this huge organizational flaw.

Debbie’s mother, Elaine, was another winner. She was as cold as ice and was a major hypochondriac. I think she was allergic to everything, including air. It was all about her. She would spend hours cooking special food. She never had to do anything she didn’t want to do. Her favorite catch phrase: “I’m not feeling too good, so the answer is no.” Just like my hypochondriac mother, she played the health card whenever it suited her.

Naturally, she was the one who brought the Jehovah’s Witnesses teachings into their family. Just like my crazy mother brought the religion into our family. Is there a coincidence here? I think not.

The crazy ones think this religion is a great idea.

Over the next year and a half, Debbie’s parents would do everything in their power to make my life a living hell. I found out later that it wasn’t just me; it was anyone who wanted to court their daughter. They had run off her last boyfriend, Tony Silva.

It turned out Elaine was completely paranoid about Debbie becoming pregnant out of wedlock. It seemed to be a family tradition. Her grandmother did it. Elaine did it. Elaine’s sister did it. Yes, she came from a long line of fornicators.

Elaine was bound and determined this wouldn’t be Debbie’s fate also.

We would be engaged for eleven months, which was the same amount of time that was left on my four-year commitment at Bethel.

We had only two dates in that time period. Our entire courtship consisted mostly of us sitting on a couch in Debbie’s living room. We spent hours talking to each other, with one or both of her parents sitting in the next room. It felt like something out of the Victorian period. Still, we managed to sneak in a kiss every now and then.

This was not normal and even over-the-top behavior for the already very strict and sexually repressed practices of the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

One of the few “dates” we had was to Allen Andrew’s house for dinner. He was the presiding Elder of the Newport congregation. Debbie’s parents called Allen’s house three times to make sure we were there and not fornicating in the bushes.

What could have been a very pleasant time turned into the courtship from hell. Elaine was a total control freak. We had no money by the time we got married because she wouldn’t let Debbie get a full-time job.

When the time came to make plans for our wedding, I told Ben and Elaine that I had some suggestions for the occasion.

Elaine told me, “All you have to do is just show up.”

I told them, “My parents would like to contribute and get us a band.”

Elaine said, “No band. We are planning to spend three hundred dollars and not a penny more.”

I said, “So, please can you let my parents contribute? I’m getting married only once in my life. Have you no compassion?”

“No! Just show up.”

I went to Lyman Swingle for some counsel. He and Ray Franz were really the only two people on the Governing Body who were anywhere near approachable.

Lyman was from Alabama, and he didn’t mind cursing now and again. I think that’s why I went to him. He seemed cool and down to earth and not self-righteous. He might have been a bit of a racist though.

One time, a self-righteous new boy complained to him about what he had heard in the bindery. “Brother Swingle,” the kid said, “I heard some Brothers cursing in the bindery!” Swingle didn’t bat an eye and said, “Really, just what in the HELL did they say?” I think he liked to shock people.

Another fun story about Lyman Swingle was when he was on the elevator with my roommate and one of the Bethel barbers, Wayne Julliano. Wayne was wearing a black suit with red top stitching (it was the 1970s). Wayne always dressed on the NPG side of things anyway. Lyman looked over at him and said, “Where did you get that suit? Ni...er Town?”

I figured Lyman would steer me in the right direction. I told him about Debbie’s parents and their power trip. He said, “You’re stuck until you get married. She is now in her parent’s house and under their total control. After you are married, you can call the shots.”

“What about the wedding?” I asked.

“Good news there. The bridegroom is in charge of the wedding reception.”

“Really?”

“Yes, it’s in the bound volumes.”

The bound volumes were books the society would make by binding together all the individual Watchtower magazines that were printed twice a month. This was done every year. If there were any questions concerning the Society policy, one would simply look up the answer in one of the bound volumes. The bound volumes were the true authority. A place that any Witness could get an answer to any question no matter how bizarre it might be.

Sure enough, I looked it up and there it was in black and white. The Society pronounced that the groom was in charge of the reception. So at least our reception wouldn’t have to succumb to Elaine’s low-budget plan.

I got the bound volume and took it up to Rhode Island to show Ben. I opened it up and read it to Ben. “You see Ben,” I said. “It states here that the groom is in charge of the wedding reception.” I read it to him word for word.

“So?” He said. I read it to him again.

“No,” he said.

“No? What do you mean no. This is information straight from the Society!” “No!” He said with a confused look on his face. Apparently, he really didn’t know if he should follow the guidance from the organization or Elaine’s commandments. So just like Adam and my father and all the other pussy-whipped guys on the planet, he chose his woman over his god.

Lyman was right. I was screwed until we got married.

Debbie and I decided that after we got married, we would move to the west coast. We were going to move as far away as we could from Debbie’s psychotic mother.

One Sunday night, before I made the three-hour drive back to New York, we dropped the bomb on them both. I have to admit, I loved seeing the look on Elaine’s face when we told her we would be moving immediately to California after our wedding.

Elaine said to me, “Get out of this house and never come back.” So, they kicked me out. I went over to Allen Andrew’s house for some counsel on how to deal with my future crazy in-laws. Allen was vague about what to do, because Ben was in the Elder club now.

However, by this time, I think he and the rest of the Elders at the Newport Kingdom Hall felt they had made a huge mistake by appointing Ben as an Elder. I really don’t think god had anything to do with his appointment. Or maybe god just had another beer and forgot about the whole thing.

That is another good thing about becoming an Elder. It’s very tough to get invited into their good old boy Elder club, but once you are in, it’s next to impossible to be removed.

Since Debbie was of legal age, she threatened her parents with moving out unless I was allowed back into the house. Even though I was allowed back, things were not the same. I had only three months left before we were married. Since I felt like I had already been through hell by being at Bethel, I knew I could take anything this woman could dish out.

Next up Chapter 34 Starving to Death Outside the Lord's House

Working on helping someone who is looking for advice.

Do you stay PIMO and keep the peace, hoping your spouse eventually wakes up? That could preserve your marriage and allow you to slowly plant seeds over time.

Or do you come out and be completely honest about where you stand, knowing it could lead to divorce, custody battles, and potentially your children being raised entirely in the organization?

I'm hoping to hear from people who've been in this exact position because I know there isn't one right answer, and I think hearing real experiences could help someone facing this impossible crossroads.

I have never been a JW but my husband was raised in it and then has bern inactive for 18 years. But the brainwashing is deeply rooted unfortunately. I try to show him scriptures and offer alternative meanings for them but he gets visibly upset when I don't agree with the JW interpretation. He basically looks up the scripture on JW and reads the interpretation verbatim. I told him to try and think about it for himself but he just reverts back to JW brainwashings. I know I can help him see the light about the WT but I think I need more insight to do so. I was able to change his thinking about birthdays after watching The Chosen episode with the example he always refers to. Of course, we haven't watched it since which leads me to believe he's either on the verge of awakening and doesn't know what to do or he's dealing with a crisis from just the realization that not everything told to him was the absolute truth.

I've been reading these posts which are veryuseful at helping me understand him better but I'm not finding much about how people woke up. Does anyone have any advice or examples I can bring up to him? I don't know if I should go straight for the corruption of the WT or just go for biblical examples. Any help/advice is greatly appreciated.

Also, in case it's relevant, his sister was disfellowshipped and his Mom has shunned her. He says he doesn't agree with it but doesn't do anything about it.

Context: My friend and I grew up together and she is still an active JW. I am PIMO (sort of), in that I have told my mother (who I live with) that I no longer believe or wish to practice the religion and have not been back to meeting since after the covid lockdowns so around 3 years now. Only attended 1 memorial at another hall 2 years ago with my mother as a nice gesture. Also my whole mother’s side of family is JW and so I ideally want to just continue fading rather than formal dissociation (at least for now).

So situation now is that this friend who has messaged me yesterday asking to catch up and if I’m okay etc. Our last message was about 3 months ago. We’ve not hung out in almost a year and I’m okay with this honestly as I feel like I can’t be fully honest around her and I’m tired of pretending. I’m also unable to disclose new developments in my life such as romantic relationships etc. and I no longer keep contact with anyone else in the religion (aside from family).

I’m not sure what to message in reply or how to go about this. I’m wondering if I just call her one day and offload this just so I can be free, or maybe just say that I’m well but not feeling social (although this would come across as weird). I’m in a group chat with her and some other sisters but those, I’ve also not seen them in ages. In an ideal scenario, I’d like to remove myself from that group chat and just cut ties with the friendship. They are genuinely lovely women but I’d rather be the one to cleanly end the friendship than be judged/reported/lectured etc.

Hey, so I just got invited to my first birthday party. It’s for one of my friends, and I really want to go, so I’m planning on going.

My parents are pretty strict when it comes to my friends who aren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses. They basically think that worldly people are bad and could be a bad influence on me and that they will do me harm,so I can’t just tell them I’m going to hang out at a friend’s house, especially since I’m not allowed to go to the homes of people who aren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses.

What excuses could I give them to stay out pretty late at a place that’s about 30 minutes away from home? And is there anything I can do to avoid getting caught celebrating someone’s birthday?

as far as I know they don’t do that, but rather they disguise it as “caring” or “checking in on you”.

I just wanted to make sure. for context, I’m inactive for 2 years, sometimes I show up when I feel like it, like Memorials because it’s that special for my family, but 98% of the time I don’t.

I sort of moved out of my parent’s house less than a year ago. i try my best that the brothers/sisters won’t find out where I live. i hate surprise visits, regardless if you are a witness or not. i’ve heard stories about elder surprise visits before, but not a formal shepherding, so i’m really avoiding that.

but technically, they’re not allowed to do that, no? an elder recently found out where i live. he seems chill but he might use the information about my address anytime in the future, like when there’s a CO visit.

i never show up to shepherding scheds before, i just tell them that i don’t feel like talking to everyone. i lowkey cut off my witness family so that makes sense to them that i look like an isolating depressed person. but whatever. that can call me however they want. i’ve never been this peaceful before, but a surprise visit in the future would make me very uncomfortable.

So I have one tattoo, but it's hidden on my hip. I'm in the trades and gonna barter a service for a tattoo with an artist in a couple weeks. Ive wanted the tattoo for going on 10 years (a tattoo of my grandma's favorite flower. She died when I was 17. She converted to a jw in her early 20s, but was the best thing my toxic family ever had. Her example is one of the only things that helps me hold onto my faith, what I do believe which is the basic jw doctrines that actually are biblical).

Im baptized and faded after some severe trauma my elder sperm donor put me through, and I watched how our 2 different congregations in different states did the same thing- cover up his abuse, put the shame and guilt on me, the victim of child abuse and DV, cover up his abuse and threaten to DF me for "reviling" against "a man appointed by god." Then even when I was just talking about my abuse and didnt "revile," they still bitched me out. It confirmed what I tried to look away from and justify for years so I faded for my own peace. I havent talked to my excuses of parents in over a year now.

Anyway, with that said im finally getting my first visible tattoo on my forearm. Ive never agreed with the cults unwritten "not rule" about tattoos and piercings. Granted I have a face piercing now, but I can always take that out. The tattoo is it. Im excited. Ive wanted it for a long time now. Me and my grandma were really close and she was the only one in the family that truly chose me over the abusive dynamic. She lived with me growing up and was my savior and biggest cheerleader. But I also feel a lot of guilt and shame, and it makes me not want to get it. I know that's just indoctrination and whatnot. I do want it. But it also gives me so much anxiety.

Has anyone ever dealt with this? And how did you overcome it? And the anxiety of other people's opinions? The ones I consider my "real" parents are active PIMI jws who truly had my back and loved me like I was their own when my actual parents never showed me that love and connection and I know they'll still love me- but I dont want them disappointed in me.

Dear brothers and sisters, open your Bibles please and read with me Deuteronomy 22, verses 28 and 29. Deuteronomy, chapter 22, verses 28 and 29. And it reads:

“If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not engaged and he seizes her and lies down with her and they are discovered, the man who lay down with her must give the girl’s father 50 silver shekels, and she will become his wife. Because he humiliated her, he will not be allowed to divorce her as long as he lives.”

Now answer this honestly:

Would a loving god make a woman marry the man who raped her, lay down with her and humiliated her, just because he could pay her father?

Lets read the order again:

1. He grabs her.
2. He lies down with her.
3. They are caught (what if they are not caught?).
4. Then he pays her father and she becomes his wife.

The law never asks whether she wants him. She does not receive the money. She is not given the right to refuse him or leave him. The man is told that he cannot divorce her, but nobody seems worried about whether she wants to spend the rest of her life trapped with him.

Some people will rationalize this saying is because of Adam and Eve.

They will say that bad things happen because sin entered the world. That completely misses the point. The man’s action is the sin. The marriage is the solution written into the law. Human free will did not write Deuteronomy. God supposedly did.

Others will try to argue that this was not rape.

The NWT says that he “seizes her” and then says that he “humiliated her". Wt calls it “pressured seduction and/or fornication”. What exactly is pressured sex? If a man grabs a woman and pressures her into lying with him, why are we so desperate to avoid calling it what it is?

But fine. Give WT the softest possible reading. Say she was only “seduced”.

Where does she agree to marry him? WT points to Exodus and says her father could refuse the marriage. Her father could refuse. She could not. Her entire future was decided between the man who took her and the father who received the payment.

And why was her father paid fifty shekels? Because her virginity had value. After this, another man might not want her, and her father might lose the bride price. So the man pays the father and takes the woman. That is not a law built around her pain or her consent. It is a law built around what she was worth to men.

The verses around it make the problem even clearer. When the woman already belonged to another man through engagement, the punishment could be death. When she was not engaged, the man paid her father and married her. Her suffering did not change. What changed was whether another man already had a claim over her.

A loving god could have:

1. Punished the man.
2. Protected the woman.
3. Given her the money.
4. and allowed her to decide what happened next.

Instead, her father gets paid and the man who grabbed her gets a wife.

I ask you, which would have been more loving?

Now, let's put ourselves in that woman's shoes, what her life with him would look like. He treated her that way before the law made her his wife. How would he treat her once she was trapped in his house and could not escape?

Remove god’s name from this law. Would anyone call it loving? Or would we recognize it as a law written by men who believed women belonged to men?

Steel your mind!

Critical thinking resource:

https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/1sql6ab/my_book_review_how_to_think_about_weird_things_by/

Hi all!

This was a exchange I had with my hardcore jw sister. I finally had enough of her only contacting me to try and maintain some sort of relationship with my daughter.

*Blank*= name removed

Sister

Does (my daughter)want to come spend the night Mon?

Me

Sorry for not getting back to you.

I've given some thought to you and *my daughters* relationship. And based on conditions you put on relationships I would like to distance our families. I'm not saying completely cut out all contact but rather just a couple visits a year with the condition religion won't be discussed.

And please in the future don't contact *my daughter* in regards to visits or sleep overs it ends up causing contention in our relationship when I say no.

Hope you and yours are doing well.

Sister:

I can't pretend it's not deeply upsetting to hear you say that. I wasn't aware you had any concerns about the time *blank* and I spend together. Is this something we can at least have a conversation about?

As for today I'm sorry if I caused any problems. I checked in with mom to see if she knew what was going on since I hadn't heard from you. She didn't think it'd be a problem for her to check with *blank* since she's home on her own today. I'm sorry if I overstepped, it won't happen again.

Me:

It's something that has been on my mind for a while. It's unusual behavior that you don't want to maintain or develop a relationship with me or *blank*, (and whatever you have going on with Mom) but want to have a relationship with *blank*. I think it sets a poor example for *blank* and goes against what I'm trying to build as a family.

My fear is when she's older and not meeting your expectations it will be hurtful for her.

Honestly put yourself in my shoes would you let me have a relationship with your child if I had no relationship with you or *blank*?

Sister:

I hear what you're saying. I understand you're upset. What I'm asking is it is reasonable to have a conversation about what you're feeling before making that kind of decision? This is the first time you've ever expressed any feelings or opinions about our relationship.

And what's going on with mom has nothing to do with you or *blank*. You're only getting one side of the story.

I respect you as a Dad and your wanting what's best for *blank* and for her to have healthy, stable relationships. She's so important to me and I want that for her too. And I can see how maybe our relationship status could be confusing for her.

But I think there are a lot of reasons why we don't have a close relationship and I don't think we can place the responsibility for that at one person's feet.

It sounds like you have many years of hurt or upset feelings about it, and I'm truly sorry you've been feeling that way. But you've never given us a chance to even talk about it.

Me:

That is not true, I broached the subject several years ago about how I missed hanging out with you guys, and you stated since we don't share religious values that we had nothing in common.

And like I said if you had a child would you allow a relationship with Me and *my wife*?

Sister:

You're right, I probably did say something like that and I can admit I probably could have handled it better. I'm sorry. I'd never been in the situation where someone you love decides to leave Jehovah. It was an extremely difficult position to be in and I didn't know to do things exactly right. It was never my intention to make you think I didn't care about you or our relationship.

But you know my loyalty is ultimately to Jehovah and the standards he sets. I'm not willing to compromise on that.

It's always been my goal to maintain a kind and respectful relationship with both you and Sam. I've never expressed any negative opinions or passed judgement in front of *blank* regarding our differences of opinion or beliefs. I wasn't aware talking about Jehovah or the Bible was ever an issue. If that's changed, then thank you for letting me know.

I truly hope and pray that you'll reconsider. And I'm open to having more conversations about this.

Me:

The fact you won't answer the question I've asked twice is very telling.

It's unfortunate that we are at a impasse.

Sister:

I wasn't trying to avoid the question, I just assumed it was about more than that. I've got nothing against you or *my wife".

I don't have kids so I can't say exactly how I would feel if I were in your position. Obviously if I thought there was a relationship that was detrimental to their well being I would have concerns. If that's how you feel about me, I don't really know what else to say. It sounds like you already have your mind made up.

I obviously don't want to close the door on this. But if there are new boundaries or rules that you feel are necessary please let me know what those are. I don't want to overstep.

Me:

The only reason you have any contact with me is that you want access to *blank* and that's hurtful and dehumanizing to me.

That being said I will allow the following:

Quarterly visits (4) times a year.

With the following stipulations.

(1) Day visits only. No sleep overs, camping, vacations.....ect.

(2) No in-depth discussion of religion. We don't mind you explaining your beliefs as we have respect and open mindedness for peoples religious preferences.

What would cross the line is any sort of literature being introduced, any church related or sponsored events.....ect.

(3) No attendance of religious services.

You've shown an unwillingness to have any sort of meaningful relationship with someone who is not a practicing Jehovah's Witness. *Blank* is not being raised as a Jehovah's witness and more likely will never become one. With that in mind at some point you will put these stipulations on her.

And to be clear I have nothing at all against your religious beliefs and would never want to discourage you or your family's faith and worship.

Sister:

You know *blank*, this is what it looks like when you let resentment and bitterness fester in your heart unchecked. You've made a lot of assumptions about my character, behavior and motives without ever having the decency to have a honest conversation with me about it. But thank you so much for making it crystal clear how you feel about me. I hope one day you won't have so much anger and animosity towards me. I still love you and only ever hope for what's best for you *blank* and *blank*.

Me:

Please correct me if I've said anything that's untrue?

You say you want to have an honest conversation but you workaround simple questions and don't want to answer me honestly.

Do you have close relationships with family or otherwise that are not Jehovah's witnesses? Y/N

If you were to have a child would you let them have a relationship with me and *blank*? Y/N (says a lot about what you think of my character that you couldn't give me a plain answer)

I have taken great care in my messages to be measured and respectful.

I have no bitterness in my heart for you I have already grieved that our families will never be close.

You asked for rules and boundaries and I provided them for you.

Sister:

I'm honestly done texting you about this. I don't think we're going to accomplish anything positive at this point. You already have your mind made up about that situation regardless of what my answers are.

Thank you for clarifying boundaries.

And just so we're clear and I can't be accused of avoiding questions, I choose my close friendships and association with those who live by Bible principles and the same would go for raising my children. But you already know that.

I’m recently pimo and my husband is pimi. Although, his “conscience” isn’t very strict at all and if he were honest about a lot of the things he’s okay with, most witnesses would be bothered lol.
Anyways, we were both very pimi before having children. We were at every meeting, in the ministry every weekend, family studies, etc. But after having our son things started to change.
It started with meetings just being more difficult with a baby. But then things started to change for us mentally. We didn’t feel like going in the ministry was appropriate with a small child. It felt like child endangerment almost to bring our child to randoms homes and knocking on their doors. So we stopped going out. Then once our son was more of a toddler the meetings just felt pointless. Like we were imposing on his nap times / bed times and being good parents to him just didn’t seem to align with forcing him to sit through a meeting sleep deprived and uncomfortable. So we started going to less and less meetings.
Then the blood issue came up. I expressed to my husband that I didn’t feel comfortable getting our son a “blood card” because I didn’t think it was fair for us to make that decision on behalf of our son & that if he needed a life saving blood transfusion I’d want him to have it. After a day or so of thinking about it my husband told me that he felt the same way & that he would want ME to have a life saving blood transfusion as well if that were ever necessary..
But it’s clear to me that even though he sees all of these issues, my husband still isn’t quite ready to leave the org. So I’m being patient with him.

However in recent days, I found out that one of the elders in our hall is abusing his wife and that almost everyone in our hall knows about it. On top of that, a recently appointed MS in our hall has been accused of CSA, and our elders knew about this and still appointed him as an MS…

So I discuss these things with my husband, and try to slowly “wake him up”. It seems like he sees everything I see and agrees with me whole heartedly that these things are wrong or just don’t align with us but he just isn’t ready to do anything about it.

(for possibly helpful contexts husband was born & raised in the organization and I came in at around 18)

Does anyone have any advice and/or experience with “waking up” after becoming a parent? Pls lmk.

I tried posting but it got removed by moderators not sure why don’t mean any harm by posting this but I went to my first meeting after my girlfriend told me that she’s jw after couple months of dating.

Was mostly curious but honestly the whole experience was really interesting, I’d previously seen a lot of videos but experiencing it first hand was pretty dope I can’t lie. I brought a friend and we were pretty much the youngest people there.

We where met first with rlly skeptical looks and they actually woudnt let us enter untill I mentioned the name of the person who’d invited me, suddenly they where super friendly. Whole experience was a trip ngl felt like we had so many eyes on us. And leaving we where approached by pretty much everyone and couldn’t leave untill we where pretty much interviewed by everyone. Was only there for so long but felt like hella stuff went on.

Idk I can’t really tell my girl about this bc I’m kinda doing this to understand her religion more I don’t want her to get the wrong idea.

Ig I’m just venting to yall cuz I can’t talk to anyone abt this, and I know all ex jw members or current pimo members might think I’m crazy but I really want to go to Sundays meeting idk it feels funny weird warm getting closer to something that I know means so much to my gf

Sai da religião das testemunhas de Jeová e hoje me encontro sem nenhum amigo. E isso é muito solitário. Eu ainda trabalho de home office, então fica muito mais fácil fazer amizades. Alguém mais passando por isso? Sou do RJ e caso tenha alguém na mesma situação que eu, me chama na dm. Vamos conversar

Has there ever been a JW video or movie in which an apostate returns to the faith? They depict people returning who simply stopped believing or got disfellowshipped, but has there ever been one about a full on apostate coming back?

To your knowledge, has JW media ever depicted the idea that apostates can be redeemed in any way?

Why does this matter?

Uma das justificativas que o Corpo Governante usa para permitir frações sanguíneas, como imunoglobulinas e albumina, apresentada na Sentinela de 15 de outubro de 2000, página 17, é que a mãe transfere naturalmente algumas dessas frações para o feto através da placenta. Segundo esse raciocínio, se Jeová permite isso na criação, seria inconsistente proibir o uso médico dessas frações.

Mas eles se esquecem de que existe uma transfusão de sangue total que ocorre na natureza. Ela é chamada de transfusão feto-fetal, porque acontece de um feto para outro. Isso ocorre em gêmeos que compartilham a mesma placenta — gêmeos monocoriônicos.

Como isso acontece:

Existem vasos sanguíneos que transportam o sangue do bebê para a placenta, onde ele absorve oxigênio e nutrientes, e outros vasos que transportam esse sangue de volta para o bebê.

Quando dois bebês compartilham a mesma placenta, seus vasos sanguíneos podem crescer próximos uns dos outros e, por causa disso, alguns vasos podem acabar formando conexões entre eles.

Se um vaso que transporta sangue de um bebê para a placenta se conectar com um vaso que traz sangue de volta da placenta para o outro bebê, o sangue que saiu de um bebê retornará pelo vaso do outro bebê.

Twin-to-twin transfusion syndrome (TTTS):

Isso pode acontecer quando há mais conexões favorecendo uma direção, quando as conexões nessa direção são maiores ou quando ambas as situações acontecem ao mesmo tempo. Nesse caso, um bebê pode acabar recebendo menos sangue do que deveria, enquanto o outro recebe mais. Esse desequilíbrio pode afetar o crescimento e o desenvolvimento do bebê doador e é chamado de síndrome de transfusão feto-fetal.

Como essa síndrome depende de uma combinação específica de características nas conexões entre os vasos da placenta, ela ocorre em cerca de 12% dos casos.

Portanto, o problema não é a existência dessas conexões entre os vasos sanguíneos dos bebês em si, mas sim quando elas causam um fluxo sanguíneo desigual entre eles.

Conclusion

Já que Jeová não pode quebrar a sua própria lei, as transfusões de sangue total devem ser uma questão de consciência e livre arbítrio para as Testemunhas de Jeová.

Fonte: https://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/jehovah-god-does-allow-natural-whole.html?m=1

I've posted in here before, almost a year ago now, and it's happening again. Both my daughters, now 10 and 9, have fears of me dying or their father dying. They have severe separation anxiety. But the problem is now, they won't talk to me about it, or really anything that isn't JW related when they have questions. I will get the occasional text from their father telling me what happened and they talked about, but they are still very much into the JW life. I keep trying to tell them in a gentle fashion that there is more to life than being a JW and I'm much happier without it.

What I keep telling them and what their father keeps telling them is that Jehovah will read our hearts and decide who's going to make it or not, and there are even some people in the organization who won't make it. I personally have come to the conclusion that there is no Paradise, but even if it does exist, I certainly don't want any part of it because there is the possibility of me seeing people I really do not want to see.

I'm at a loss as to what to do, I've tried being gentle and I've tried to be direct. There is no convincing them otherwise as it's just me and my current partner who have their backs here, but over with their father, they have him and his entire family and the congregation telling them things about me.

Dear brothers and sisters, open your Bibles please and read with me Deuteronomy 20, verses 13 and 14. Deuteronomy, chapter 20, verses 13 and 14. And it reads:

“Jehovah your God will certainly give it into your hand, and you must strike down every male in it with the sword. But the women, the children, the livestock, and everything that is in the city, all its spoil, you may plunder for yourself”

The order is clear:

1. Kill every male.
2. Take the women and children as plunder.

Now continue to Deuteronomy 21, verses 10 through 14. A soldier sees “among the captives a beautiful woman”. He is attracted to her and wants her as his wife. He brings her into his house. She shaves her head, removes her captive clothing and mourns her parents for one month. Then the Bible says:

“Afterward you may have relations with her; you will become her husband and she will become your wife”

Imagine you are one of the men killed:

Your wife is taken by the soldiers who killed you. One of them finds her beautiful, brings her home and gives her one month to cry before having relations with her.

Imagine it is your daughter. She is mourning you while trapped inside the home of the soldier who took her.

Imagine it is your sister. Her husband, father and brothers may be dead. She is listed beside the livestock as plunder. Then a soldier chooses her because he likes how she looks.

Imagine you are the wife, the daughter or the sister, you only have one, one month to grieve and then you need to have sex with the killer.

I ask:

Where does she say yes? Where can she refuse? Where can she leave?

She is a prisoner!. Calling her a wife does not make her free. Giving her one month to mourn does not give her consent or dignity.

But he is the cherry on top.

If the soldier later gets tired of her, the law says he may send her away because he has “humiliated her”.

Think again:

They killed her family.

He chooses her.

He takes her.

He has sex with her.

Then HE decides whether to keep her or not.

What does she choose? I know... NOTHING!

Would a loving god command this?

Or does it sound exactly like a law written by ancient men who thought women were property.

Steel your mind!.

Critical thinking resource:

https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/1sql6ab/my_book_review_how_to_think_about_weird_things_by/

I know PIMIs who are aware that the 607/1914 doctrine is a lie, that CSA is rampant in the org, and they still go out preaching. I don’t mean the checked-out/going through the motions kind of preaching either. These individuals go preaching on their midweek days off, go out in the evening, etc.

I don’t understand how someone can know that they are going out and LYING to people with the purpose of converting them. So much for integrity and truth.

I understand the fear that some of them may be feeling that keeps them in the cult, I guess I’m just ranting. Maybe I’m just mad because I’ve lost respect for so many people I loved and looked up to.

When I started studying the Bible with Jehovah’s Witnesses using the book “Enjoy Life Forever!”, I liked that they encouraged people to reason, ask questions, and look for evidence to support their beliefs. But during one of the lessons, I came across a statement that made me think.
I was told that the Bible contains scientific knowledge that was far ahead of its time. As an example, they referred to Job 36:27–28, which says that God “draws up drops of water,” and then they become rain.
I was told that this was supposedly a description of the water cycle in nature thousands of years before scientists discovered this process.
At first, this really sounded impressive. But then I decided to read this passage several times myself and compare it with what modern science calls the hydrological cycle.
And that’s where I started having questions.
Is the water cycle really described in the Book of Job?
The modern hydrological cycle includes the evaporation of water caused by solar energy, the movement of water vapor through air currents, condensation, precipitation, water flowing into rivers, absorption into the soil, groundwater, and the return of water back to seas and oceans.
In the Book of Job, I only saw that water somehow appears in clouds and then falls as rain. But isn’t this something that anyone could have observed with their own eyes thousands of years ago? It did not require modern instruments or scientific discoveries.
Moreover, the Book of Job itself is written in a poetic style. It contains many vivid images: it speaks about the “pillars of heaven,” the “gates of the sea,” the storehouses of snow, and other figurative expressions. Therefore, it seems strange to me to treat one poetic image as a scientific discovery and use these verses as an example to claim that the Bible agrees with modern science and was ahead of its time.
Another thing that confused me is that in other parts of the Bible there are descriptions of the “windows of heaven” through which rain pours down, and of “waters above the expanse of the heavens.” These ideas seem to reflect an ancient understanding of the structure of the world rather than modern meteorology.
So I have a question.
Could it be that we are trying or wanting to see scientific ideas in an ancient text that the author never originally intended to put there? Or are we being encouraged to see it this way in order to convince us of the uniqueness of the Bible?
I became interested in whether you have noticed other moments in the book “Enjoy Life Forever!” where, in your opinion, the reader is guided toward a certain conclusion or encouraged to accept a particular viewpoint?
I am genuinely interested in hearing the opinions of people who have studied this book, especially former Jehovah’s Witnesses.

For a while now, maybe years, I have been going through this crisis. It has come in different phases, with several emotional hits along the way. It has been a very troubled and traumatic experience.

Being a Jehovah’s Witness, as I know is true for many of us who were born in and raised in it, and who genuinely took “the Truth” to heart, it became part of our identity. Our friendships, love, family, and spiritual “career” were all based on being completely united with what we believed was God’s organization on earth.

Everything else was delayed, postponed, or numbed because nothing was supposed to be more important than serving Jehovah through the organization.

This identity was strong and was shaped by acts and choices that defined our lives deeply, often in irreversible ways.

Wanting to stay positive and genuinely optimistic, we had good intentions and sincere motivations. We also had good days.

And that’s where the hardest part comes in.

It is incredibly difficult to let go of the feelings attached to memories we will never forget. It hurts to separate ourselves from the life we believed we had. I didn’t want to lose it. I guess neither did you.

So, after finding the truth about “the Truth”, each of us in different ways and at different times, we often try to hold on to something from that life, maybe because we need to believe that those years meant something.

I also find myself wondering: What if they apologized? What if they hadn’t been so strict? What if they had been more transparent? What if they had handled child sexual abuse properly? And so on.

But it feels futile.

The truth is that we were lied to. Time, energy, opportunities, and resources were taken from us. Even worse, our faith was placed in something we believed represented God. Some of us put our integrity to the test, and some even put our lives or health at risk because we sincerely believed it was the right thing to do.

It hurts!

Now we have a chance to identify based on our peculiarity, interests, passion, desires and humanity even mistakes.

I grew up attending meetings and was baptized in 2015. I haven’t been active in a few years now. My dad is very much so active. I don’t live at home. I have had a “worldly” girlfriend for a while now and it’s serious. I finally told my dad. He’s devastated. I don’t know if he’ll stop talking to me but he might. The thought of him worrying about me dying at Armageddon every day, hurts my soul and I don’t know what to do. My family is everything and I don’t know if I can bear to continue with my gf. I’m just venting really, I know the choice is mine but it hurts.

I was born & raised, 4th generation JW. Never was baptized because my dad is a catholic & I questioned this religion’s teachings very early. When I started working, I moved out of my parents’ home & suffice to say, I have a pretty good life compared to when I was in.

6 months ago, my mom died to kidney failure. I knew damn well her story’s not going to end well. But I never thought she wouldn’t get the chance to meet her first granddaughter because of her belief. I remember her first trip to the ER, so weak and fragile. She couldn’t even speak. Yet her phone was ringing nonstop. After taking first aid, I remember her, with whatever strength left of her, answer calls & messages from elder. When she was sleeping, I checked her phone and saw messages from those elders, not checking her, not asking how she’s feeling, but REMINDING her to be strong and don’t believe in the doctor’s recommendations to get blood transfusion. I was shaking with anger but I kept my cool for my mom. No one visited her! Not one “friend” or brother or sister. Even the people who rushed her to the ER were not witnesses, they are our neighbors who this religion considers immoral.

Cut the long story short, I begged her to get a blood transfusion. She refused. In the end, she died. And every day, I remember how the elders bombarded her with questions and reminders not to get the medication that could have atleast given her more months or years, so she can live and eventually see my daughter.

I had to sit during her discourse funeral, cursing this cult internally yet smiling at each of those hypocrites. I had to sit down and listen to their nonsense - of how my mom was brace and a good example and how Jehovah will remember her when paradise comes. I remember thinking their God was so cruel, denying someone in need of a medication that could help her. But then again, it was those people in charge, those people in power, who are the true perpetrator.

This solidified my belief of how dangerous this cult is. How cruel and manipulative they all are.

In the end, I had to find a way to make peace with my mom’s decision. Not even understand it because I truly can’t. I just have to sit with her choices and the pain that comes with it. I was pregnant and I needed her. Yet her religion has more chokehold on her than that need. I was questioning her love of us, her children. Because in my mind, when my daughter tells me she needs me, even God is someone I will willing to drop if it means I get to be with her.

Suffice to say, I never understand my mom. Never let go of the anger in her decision and in this cult. Eventually, what I understand is her bravery. Bravery to stand on what she believes in and accept death. Nevertheless, it’s a fucked up religion and people in it are hypocrite, cruel and just evil.

I’m so glad I got out when I did.

They say it like it settles the argument. Proof that belief is what makes people good.

I’ve never been able to hear it that way. What I hear is someone telling me that the only thing between them and walking out on their marriage mate is a pair of eyes they believe are on them. Followed by, the itemized list of what they’d do — who they’d sleep with, what they’d take, who they’d stop caring about.

That isn’t evidence of virtue. It’s evidence of surveillance.

I didn’t have language for this until I ran into a quote from Seneca:
“Nothing is noble if it’s done unwillingly or under compulsion. Every noble deed is voluntary.”

Not less noble. Not noble with an asterisk. Nothing.

That’s a hard line to sit with, because I did a lot of objectively good things in there. Meetings. Service. Cleaning the hall. Talks. Showing up when showing up was inconvenient. I would like very much to say those things were mine.

But strip out the threat, the surveillance, the social cost - the family you’d lose, the friends who’d stop calling, the standing you spent decades building. What’s still standing?

Nobody warns you that the answer doesn’t get easier after you leave either. The opposite of being told what to do is not doing whatever you want.
That’s the same appetite those witnesses were confessing to, just off the leash. A different master with worse manners.

So the question got harder, not easier. Not what am I required to do. That one has an answer, and someone will gladly print it for you. But who do I freely choose to become, which has no publication, no elder, and no answer key.

I wrote the longer version of this here 👉🏼 Chosen virtue builds character. Compelled virtue builds compliance.

How many of you heard some version of that car group line? And did it sound like faith to you at the time?