Looking for an OR Echo alternative that's available in the UK. Basically want maximum breathability sacrificing UPF 50 for UPF 15.

For some reason this just doesn't exist. There are options that on paper look right but don't have actual UPF rating, like the Rab Sonic or the new Patagonia Cap Ultra.

Use case is tropical country traveling and hiking+ scuba diving boats where I end up standing in red sea full sun for hours. I need it to dry quickly and not make me sweat while providing some sun protection.

Multiple people in this sub tried the Rab Sonic and said it wasn't as cool or comfortable as the OR echo, all the while not even having the same UPF rating (I assume it doesn't because it doesn't actually hit 15 and 15 is the minimum to get UPF certification).

Which is why I'm excited to see Patagonia seemingly coming out with a product in this space this year, but I can't see any reviews yet. Anyone here has it and can comment?

Thanks

Where: Philmont Scout Ranch, Cimarron, New Mexico

When: 07/04/2026 - 07/15/2026

Distance: 68 miles, ~11,000' elevation gain/loss. This was a modest trip in terms of difficulty, though the youth chose to do side hikes / bag peaks whenever they could.

Conditions:  Base camp highs in the 90s, lows in the high 60s/low 70s. Back country: Highs in the 80s, lows in the 40s. Rain in the afternoon of most days. Rain was refreshing, not cold. Elevations ranged from 6600 at base camp to 11,700 (Phillips Peak) with 2 nights spent over 10,300 feet. Very low dew points. It was just beautiful!

Lighterpack:  Last month I published my LP for a trip to Philmont for a shakedown. I call this "UL-ish" because there are some things about Philmont that are decidedly non UL. Some of the tricks I had planned on doing in order to cut weight did not pan out. Whatever. I still cut ~3.5 pounds from my BW from the 2023 trip.

This post is intended to be reflection/lessons-learned for next time. Here is a link to what I actually took: https://lighterpack.com/r/4mdrsb

Photo Album: https://imgur.com/a/4zRC9Bs

The Report: I'm going to focus not on the hiking, but on the gear.

Here are some things that I'd do differently next time

1. I will not bring the second sun hoodie. While I did wear it, my primary hoodie got washed half way through and wasn't even that stinky. I waffled on taking it. Turns out I should not have. Embrace the stink! (213 gram savings)
2. I was way more effective at battery management than I thought I would be. Next time I only bring one of the Nitecore 10K units. I finished with about 40% on my phone and never touched the second battery. (150 gram savings)
3. I brought both the butt pad and the modded-Helinox chair. I ended up using the butt pad more than 50% of the time as there are LOTS of stumps and logs to sit on at Philmont. The one I used was the cheap/1 oz one from Litesmith/GGG. It compressed a lot. Next time I'll leave the Helinox behind and bring the 2 oz Thermarest Z-seat. (377 gram savings)
4. Sleeping pads........ I ended up taking a large/wide Xlite because, of the many inflatable pads I have, it was the only one that wasn't leaking. I waited too long to deal with this prior to leaving for the trip. Next time I'll get things dealt with ahead of time so I could take one of my several lighter options. (144 gram savings minimum)
5. I brought the Finetrack Elemental T-shirt and Dutchwear Laundry Shorts to sleep in to be YPT compliant, but I always just slept in my hiking clothes. (I never used the shirt and shorts.) The same thing happened in 2023. I'll leave them in base camp next time. (132 gram savings)
6. I tested my watch at home before the trek and found I could get 13 days between recharges, so I didn't bring the charger cord in the back country. That was a mistake. I accidentally hit the flashlight function on my watch and burnt a bunch of battery life, then ran out of charge on day 8. Next time I'm bringing the charging cord for my watch. And before you ask "why don't you just get a different watch?" I've tried. I REALLY like this one. (25 gram addition)

Total weight to save for next time: 991 grams! That would have reduced my base weight from 11.31 to 9.12 pounds!

Note: Someone suggested ditching either my EE Copperfield wind shirt or my DCF rain jacket. I took both, and used both. They have different use cases. I am hesitant to give up either, especially if I give up the second sun hoodie.

Some of the things that worked remarkably well:

1. The whole concept of a carrying a separate small bear bag for coffee supplies hung via the PCT method (line, stick and carabiner) so that I could retrieve it myself before the youth even got up to take the group bear bags down was gold. 100% going to do that again. 120 grams for Toaks 750, dedicated bear bag and line was totally worth it. I got my coffee each morning before they even got up, and that made for a happy hiker.
2. I am Team umbrella and kilt. Perfect combination for the afternoon showers while hiking. (It rained most afternoons - but never anything heavy.) Oh, and the umbrella doubled as sun relief multiple times.
3. I discovered that by putting the Big Sky Dream Sleeper inside my hoodie, I could keep it from wandering around the sleeping mat at night. Bonus - my face was on fabric rather than plastic.
4. My Alpha and EE Copperfield windbreaker was all I needed when it got chilly - even when it was raining. I did not miss my puffy. I am glad I left it at home.
5. Half of a beach-towel size liteload towel was perfect for backcountry showers. 62 grams. Totally worth it.
6. Bringing the smallest Jackery battery bank to charge every thing up in base camp before departure was absolutely the right answer. (Obviously leave it behind at base camp.) Last time I had to compete for an outlet in the advisor's lounge. This time I just charged in my tent.
7. My MYOG-modded CRO quilt proved, once again, to be the sweet spot with respect to performance and weight. 411 grams! (Personally tested/proven comfortable on a 25 degree night when paired with an Xlite.)

Other Philmont-specific lessons learned:

1. I'm not going to do food substitutions next time. They give you SO MUCH FOOD. I could never eat it all and ditched probably 30% of the items. Next time I'll simply bring a couple of replacement bars to handle any substitutions I might need the first couple days, then rely on swap boxes for everything else. This would cut my weight overall.
2. Philmont trails get super dusty. I spent much of the trip sneezing and coughing. The whole bandanna-across-the-face trope of cowboys in the old west makes a lot of sense to me. I'll substitute a bandanna for my tent's Sham-Wow next time so I can use it this way.
3. I did not bring a knife. I just brought my Litesmith scissors. That worked great except I didn't have anything to clean dirt from under my fingernails. I'll have to swap something from my kit so that I have this capability for next time.
4. I need to add 10'x10' chunk of Tyvek to the group gear to lay down on the ground in the "kitchen" area so that everything is not in the dirt.
5. Because I wore pants, I left the gators behind. Big mistake. I had to clean dirt and debris out of my shoes constantly. Gators next time!

My MVP for the trip:

In 2023 the MVP was my sun umbrella. This time the honor goes to my Patagonia Capilene Daily Cool hoodie. Super comfortable and excellent at evaporative cooling. I wore it 8 of the 10 days. Worth every penny.

Hi everyone, I’m 5’11” and roughly 134 lbs. I am having an ablative laser treatment done in the next couple of weeks. I need some recs for long sleeve breathable SPF shirts—I’m struggling to find tops with arms that reach my wrist. Im in Texas, so it is blistering hot. To cover my neck and chest I’m using gators and bandanas, but any mock neck cuts would be great too. The only decent piece I’ve found is Athleta’s Interval Jacket in Small/Tall, but again, it’s a little too warm for that right now (arms and shoulders are perfect). I bought and kept the Coolibar Women's Funnel Neck Long Sleeve Top - UPF 50+ Sun Protection - Catona, but it’s slightly short in the arm (I’ll deal).

My lady and I are looking at getting a new tent to backpack and Bikepack with, I am looking at the Pivot duo and trio as options. I can't seem to find any real good videos out there about these tents besides the Zpacks promo videos on them. questions I have is how these hold up in storms? Is the Duo big enough for me and my smaller lady or is the trio the better option? Does the headspace seem good in this tent?

So inspired by https://www.reddit.com/r/Ultralight/comments/1v1lcs1/can_someone_explain_fleecemid_insulating_layers/ I want to buy a an active midlayer for bikepacking/cycling. I'm planning to wear a thin mesh baselayer, then (optionally) the midlayer when it's cold and then a windbreaker. I also have a down vest and jacket which I will bring depending on the trip.

My question is: any reason why or why I should not get the Patagonia R1 Air for that (no hoodie but high/turtle neck)? One thing I don't really need is the pocket. Any good alternatives that might be a better fit for me? I would not mind merino blends since I don't wear a backpack so there should be very little wear and tear on it.

Hello, I am looking to invest in a higher quality sleeping bag (or quilt as I have been seeing a lot about those in this subreddit). Generally I like hiking on the colder end but am planning to go hiking in mid Sweden this summer so there will be relatively warm nights, around 10 degrees Celsius. The Raven or Lark from feathered friends looked like a really good bag but am unsure if those would be way too warm for my upcoming trip (though perhaps it could be zipped open and used more as blanket?) Also, I do not mind being a bit uncomfortable so perhaps a bag like that is a bit overkill in terms of quality? Anyhow, quilts seem nice as well for their adjustability and small packing size. Sleeping mat recommendations would be great as well! Main features I am interested in are small packing size and a insulation value for sub degree temperatures.

Key points

-Gear (sleeping bag/quilt and mat aimed more toward cold climate but adaptability to a temperature of 10 degrees C would be great if possible

-Low packing volume if possible

-Don't need the highest quality but if I get something I would like it to be used for a long time.

I am 189 cm so around 6'2 to 6'3 and have relatively broad shoulders

Thanks for reading and any suggestions!

Edit: would the Timmermade Coati skirt quilt be a good option?

Hello everyone,

I have been bikepacking in Norway for over 5 weeks now. I travel with a Big Agnes Copper Spur UL2 bikepack tent that I bought a few months ago. I know the tent is not designed for the harshest Northern European winds and rain but so far it was holding up well and I really like it.

Today is an especially bad day with rain and drizzle for over 18 hours now. And this morning I started noticing drops falling from the tent poles, and it seems to me that water is penetrating through the fabric. It also happened without me being present (it actually got slightly worse during the day) so I doubt it is just condensation.

So far it is manageable, but I really don't want it to get worse, and a leaking tent is really bad for morale furher down the tour...

Are their others who have been in a similar situation, and is their a hack to fix the worst of it? Usually, I would file it for warranty but that would either mean ending the trip or buying a new tent. Both are not really an option.

Looking at various mat-sleeping bag-warmth-weight combinations. How does one decide whether it's better to go warmer on the mat or the sleeping bag? Where does the balance lie?

With the rollback of environmental protections, including most recently the news out of Utah/DC last week, I revisited this BPL article Ryan Jordan published last December. In, "Selling Public Lands Without a Vote: The Quiet Enclosure of the Commons," he argues:

Land enclosure doesn’t require a deed transfer. It can happen bit by bit through paperwork and process: a sentence deleted from an appropriations bill here, a public comment process removed there, or a political appointee who treats land like inventory. And for this to happen, it needs oversight and accountability to go MIA.

...They don’t start by selling the land: they start by deleting the language that says it’s in the public trust.

That's what has effectively been done with the recent executive orders which "collectively cut nearly three million acres out of monument protection, including 1.69 million acres of land from Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument and 1.24 million acres for Bears Ears National Monuments — about 90% of the land previously protected in each monument." This affects us hikers. As many of you know, the Hayduke passes through the Grand Staircase/ Escalante National Monument. Blogger PMags has a decades worth of posts about his ramblings through Bears Ears, documenting archaeological sites and geographic wonders now at risk. The loss of cultural heritage is a real possibility. The enclosure of the commons and leasing of land to mining and fracking companies will impact outdoor recreation of all types. Local economies built on guides and outfitters and tourism to the monuments suffered last time this happened. Millions of acres are being redesignated for the benefit of corporations and against public opinion. Our public lands are being taken from us, again.

As backpackers living in fossil modernity during the ascendancy of neoliberal governing rationality, we need to do more than fuss over gear lists. We can't afford to deny the realities of our era. We need to organize and act. In the article, Jordan lays out a broad method for defense of public lands.

Public lands conservation decisions are being made by elected politicians (and their appointees). They are motivated by the conflicting influences of access to power from above and reelection incentives from below. They respond to pressure from commoners when that pressure is organized, specific, and sustained – and directly threatens their ability to (a) govern efficiently and (b) influence their reelection prospects.

The influence of power from above is strong, but that’s a strategy that depends on your absence.

His eight point strategy can be easily picked up by anyone with willpower and a little time on their hands. Find your representative and start today. Join an organization that is funding legal efforts to fight executive overreach. Join local conservation and trail maintenance organizations and build community where you live, because, as history shows, this is the future for all public lands if we don't step up now. Make sure you get outside and enjoy the wilderness and trails while you can.

My questions for this group: What do you feel are your individual responsibilities to the protection and maintenance of public lands? Do we, as backpackers, need to think bigger than LNT? Where as a community should we stand on important issues such as land designation and use? Is UL gear the focus of our collective identity or just tools to stay safe and comfortable outdoors? Is there room in online spaces like this one to discuss the larger issues related to backpacking and wilderness travel?

I like this subreddit and all but I'd also like to point out that websites like BPL and hiker blogs have resources and insights that can be lacking or hard to find on reddit. As a bonus, they are usually well written. PMags, LarryBoy, The Hiking Life, Jupiterhikes, the big outside and others all have trip reports, trail info and more on their sites. Decentralize your internet experience!

Hey Everyone. I've got a few questions on deciding a loop for my September Wind River Range trip. I'm going solo with experience in the Sawtooths, a big chunk of south Utah and North Georgia/Alabama. I've got 3 loops I'm looking at that are varying length and difficulty. The length portion is not such a big deal mostly because they are all within my week window. I'm going to back food for 6 days whether I plan on doing that or not because I may want to adventure some if i pick a shorter set route. I have some specific questions on each loop down below, and i have links to each loop in AllTrails. I have them in cal topo too if you want them.

1. Skurka Loop 4 Reverse:

https://www.alltrails.com/explore/custom-routes/loop-4-reverse-8400bd7?u=i&sh=xcncms

My main questions here are around difficulty, and frankly if its a dumb idea to do solo. Obviously I've picked what Skurka says is the 2nd toughest stretch of his full WRHR and the hardest of the Dixon route. Just how bad is upper alpine lake? I'm familiar with some light class 3 from scrambling around the canyons near Escalante and the Needles District but high alpine scrambling is new to me. i.e. highly sloped lime/sandstone and canyon walls vs talus and granite cliffs. I think I have the days planned right with a larger first day up to indian pass, short (mileage) tough day to camp lake, and smooth sailing on the 2 days headed out. This is the loop I want to do the most but am a bit unsure of myself. I'd like either some route guidance or a "No dont be a dumbass". I have heard this is about the most beautiful hiking in the Winds.

1. Big Sandy to Kagevah Pass Loop

https://www.alltrails.com/explore/custom-routes/august-wrr-route-53c184d?u=i&sh=xcncms

A loop I just made up, I think it takes portions of the southern High Route? Looks neat but I just made this one up on my own. Not as many questions here honestly. This seems to be a good longer back-up.

1. Knapsack Col Titcomb Loop

https://www.alltrails.com/explore/custom-routes/titcomb-knapsack-loop-8ca7e79?u=i&sh=xcncms

Loop up Sky pilot like you're headed to Green River and then headed up to the westside of Knapsack Col, through titcomb and back to the trailhead. Anythig I need to add? Time wise this is bar far the shortest of the 3 excluding the knapsack col portion.

I'd just like some feedback or firsthand experience of the stretch between Indian Pass and Camp Lake. I know this is a long post but I would appreciate the feedback or any critiques of my loops!

I am aware that they are both built for different reasons. I do not want to spend money on two different sleeping pads as they are very pricey. What is everyone's thoughts on using the Extreme as an all season sleeping pad. And comparison in the durability of both. My thinking is that I likely will not be going on any winter expeditions, I do however go high altitude at times and but get cold at night. I was hoping to offset weight by getting the Extreme and use a lighter sleeping bag when the occasion called for it. What are everyone's thoughts/experience?

My cartridge for my gravity works filter appears to be clogged and for a new one they want to extort me for $80. But it’s a beefy system and it was good for group trips but solo I am debating just buying one of the smaller $30 Amazon full gravity systems that are well rated all over 4.5 stars. Anyone know if there is an aftermarket gravity works or compatible cartridge that would fit on the hoses? Thanks

Hi everyone, I’m coming over the pond with my partner to do the Long Trail in September and would love some advice on my Lighterpack as I’ve only hiked on the west coast before (PCT).

Non-negotiable are the blanket (I know crazy extra weight but bringing it to avoid any chance of a chilly partner), and the tent as it’s too expensive to swap over.

Any other advice for if I’ve got enough warm kit or not, missing any essentials, or easy ways to cut weight would be really appreciated.

We’ll be sharing tent/cooking system/water filter which I am carrying.

Thanks so much and happy hiking all :)

https://lighterpack.com/r/wcxr6n

Edit: you all are so great thanks for all the advice, have updated the Lighterpack with changes, including ditching the blanket :’) . I will also drop the power bank down to a 10K, and am considering a lighter sitting pad. Only thing I’m still unsure of is if I need to add a fleece to my kit.

I get cold very easily. I usually have to layer more than most people to stay warm when I'm not active. As a result I own a lot of warming layers but I sometimes feel like I own a lot of duplicates and not enough variety. I encounter all types of weather conditions and climates.

I own 3 sets of base layers. All are synthetic. 2 are level 1 ECWCS and one set is from Costco.

Outdoor Research Vigor grid fleece top (with hood) that I bought 1 size too small so it fits like a baselayer.

I have 2 ECWCS level 2 grid fleece tops and one grid fleece bottom.

1 ECWCS level 3 muppet fleece jacket and a knit fleece Arcteryx Covert hoody from 2014.

1 2014 Arcteryx Thorium AR down jacket (no hood) and 1 2013 Arcteryx Atom SV hoody (100 gsm coreloft).

1 Outdoor Research Coldfront down hoody.

Mountain Hardware Kor Airshell wind jacket.

USMC Goretex jacket and trousers.

Arcteryx 2013 Stingray Goretex ski hardshell.

Outdoor Research Foray 2 Goretex rain jacket from 2024.

So that's the collection. I'm considering an Octa fleece since I don't have a super lightweight or "modern" fleece. I also don't own a regular polar fleece so I'm thinking of picking up an OR Polartec 200 zip fleece hoodie. Would these just be redundant or would they actually add versatility to my wardrobe?

I genuinely don't know the "weight" of the fleece in my level 3 ECWCS jacket and it doesn't have a hood. My level 2 ECWCS grid fleece also lacks a hood. Again, I get cold very easily so I like my hoods. This is probably the primary reason I'm considering the Polartec 200 zip hoodie. Since I don't currently own a fleece jacket with a hood (because my OR Vigor is too small).

Is my money better spent somewhere else or do you think I have all my bases covered?

I'm planning a shoulder season trip to northern Sweden and need a new sleeping pad, but honestly the amount of options is a bit overwhelming.

I'm 190cm (6'2") and a side sleeper. I'm currently looking at the Therm-a-Rest NeoAir XTherm NXT, Exped Ultra 6.5R and Exped Ultra R7.5.

I’d rather be too warm than too cold, so I’m leaning towards a higher R-value, but I’m unsure what to get and don’t want to waste money on something I'll regret later.

Any advice would be appreciated.

How are we feeling about Hilltop packs? I'm eyeing my first frameless 40 and I really like their customization options and support. I have a dyneema bear bag that I really like. Anyone own one of their packs?

So for context I used to backpack a ton growing up doing multi day backpacking trips and weekend trips. I decided I needed to get a new pack and I’ve realized there’s a lot of options and ultralight seems like a move. All of my gear is lightweight for the most part with some being UL, like my tent and pad. Nowadays I do like 2 night max trips around maybe 5-10 miles each way. Should I go ultralight for my pack? I kind of want to but it could be in honestly not sure. I was eyeing the Gregory paragon 60L for a pack until i started doing some digging into ultralight. Curious to see what people think!

I think I have a good understanding of the layering system but mid (insulating) layers seem to be the most complicated.

I have regular fleece (like a throw blanket) sweaters. I think it's called "polar fleece"?

I have knitted fleece sweaters (Arcteryx covert hoody). They have a visible weave like any regular sweater.

I have fuzzy fleece (rothco ecwcs level 3 sweater).

I have insulated jackets. Both down (Thorium AR Jacket and OR Coldfront hoodie) and synthetic fills (Atom SV Hoody),

I have various grid fleece sweaters (for when you're active).

And a whole bunch of other materials.

I'd wear the insulated jackets in the coldest temps, the grid fleece in the highest temps or when I'm active.

My primary question is the difference between the different types of fleece. Is there any meaningful difference between polar fleece, knitted fleece, and furry fleece?

I bought the Lanshan 2 pro version 2026 in silpoly for 3 season and I am currently here in Scotland. Unfortunately this tent has a mosquito net with approx 1 mm holes on the sides. I was shocked to see midges come through the holes into the tent. I spoke to other people with the older pro version or the standard double wall version and they did not seem to have the issue. I bought my tent from camperlists this winter. Totally not recommend this version for Scottland. Has anyone else made a similar experience?

Tortillas are an awesome backpacking food in almost every way, but they are heavy! Does anyone have a good substitute with a close nutrition profile, but lighter?

Hi all

I'm searching for a sleeping layer that can increase my warmth when sleeping right at the limit of my sleeping bag comfort rating. The easiest way is to buy a warmer sleeping bag, but it is too costly, and I mostly foresee temperatures just a bit too cold for my current setup. I need this extra warmth as an emergency buffer.

Weight matters a lot to me. Right now I have a Patagonia Capilene Thermal Weight Zip-Neck Pullover, but I am looking for something lighter and warmer.

So far I think a Polartec Alpha crew neck in 90g or 120g would be the best choice, but I'd love to hear other thoughts and experiences.

I also found Brynje mesh baselayers but don't know how warm they actually are when used inside a sleeping bag to trap air.

Are there other lightweight options I'm overlooking, or is Alpha the best bet here? Thanks for any advice!

I go hiking with my girlfriend. Wie have the xdome 2 and love it. But out sleeping pads are getting up there in age and basicly dont Insulate at all. Especially for the weight Sea to summit ultralight.

So im looking for new sleeping pads. The one I see All the time is the neo Tensor All season.

I tend to get cold at night and id like a pad with a high r value.

Now the question. As we can splurge a bit on weight, as we can share 2 person items, does a two Person sleeping pad make sense? Is there a con or benefit to it that might be not so obvious.

As one of the things I dislike most about Camping is packing up in the morning. Would one big sleeping pad make it easier to pack up then two normales once?

Do you have recommendations for a warm and quiet pad?

Would love to hear your thoughts on a double pad in general, as im unsure.

Just tried out the Thermarest Compressible Pillow Cinch and enjoyed its comfort and size (18x14x6); however, the 11.5 oz seems a bit much. Does anyone have a recommendation for a similar size pillow that’s not inflatable?

..because it’s marketed as extra thick = more comfort and you think that this might be helpful. Here is what it does to my shoulders during a (naturally quite horrible) night when used standalone (which, according to exped, is intended use):
https://imgur.com/a/3k0pDhs

The second photo is my shoulder the next day (bruises still there) after sleeping in a normal bed.

I think this "review" kind of speaks for itself. It's a shame, because I had really high hopes for this guy (I can't stand the sound of inflatable pads). Anyone else got experiences with this mat? Any recommendations for a foam mat for side sleepers (aside from the zlite which is just a little barebones tbh)