r/progressive_islam 3h ago

Question/Discussion ❔ Question for some Muslims?

0 Upvotes

I'm friendly Ex-Muslim. However I must ask, what's everyone's opinion on the whole "Ayesha was 9 when Muhammed married her" thing?

In my opinion I don't really believe it; while yes I left Islam because it has issues and problems. (Example the whole cousin is Halal for marriage thing, etc, etc) I think Muslims still are nice people, and deserve not to be racist towards (Unless your a bad person who is Muslim. Don't blame the belief blame the person)

But back to topic; my question is what do you think about Ayesha being "married" to Muhammed at 9? Before I left Islam I was taught she was 19-22 when she married Muhammed. Sometimes my mom said "She's actually older than Muhammed by 9 whole years"

I wanna hear Ur opinion tho :3


r/progressive_islam 22h ago

Question/Discussion ❔ When i dont pray and get distant from Allah im so much happier

3 Upvotes

First of all, i dont want anyone to stop praying because of me, it could just be a coincidence and this isnt something u should do, if u can hold on to ur prayers please hold on.Praying is the hardest thing in the world for me right now.

Why do i feel so much happier when im away from islam, when i dont pray or read the quran i feel like a burden has been lifted off me.

A year ago i used to love islam and praying and reading the quran, everybody saw me as a good muslim, i used to love Allah and repent etc but now it feels like Allah is pushing me away from islam, my life had become unbearable and i began hating myself and islam

Every time i pray i feel so heavy and i find it so hard to do wudhu and pray so i abandoned it as it became too overwhelming and i feel like each time i tried to become a better muslim, Allah doesnt like it and he pushes me away by making my life harder and making me sad.

I know this isnt logical but i cant think of any other explanation to why Allah does this to me, ive also noticed sometimes life gets easier when i dont pray.


r/progressive_islam 2h ago

Advice/Help 🥺 Why can I not believe in an afterlife? Is that bad?

7 Upvotes

Hi

I've had a long journey from blindly following, to trying to convert, back to blindly following, to no believing and now being obedient to God in a way outside of mainstream Islam. I like being a Muslim, just not part of the Muslim community

Why is it that I'm so comfortable with the idea of "God", and prayer, and following the Quran in a way that honors its themes of justice, mercy and emancipation but I'm just not convinced of an afterlife? And I don't much care for it? Does that make me a bad Muslim?

Its pretty obvious that the Quran says that there will be a day of judgement and then an afterlife but I just can't convince myself its the truth. Would God be upset with me if I'm just not convinced? I mean it hasn't affected my obedience to him, how I view him, how I love him. Is he upset?


r/progressive_islam 19h ago

Research/ Effort Post 📝 Clarifying Hadith

1 Upvotes

Salaam Alaikom everyone! I really hope I can post this here because I deeply benefited from the incredible nuance compassion and grounding by this ustadh to clarify hadith. If it helps you, please make duaa for him and share! ❤️🤲

CLICK HERE


r/progressive_islam 6h ago

Question/Discussion ❔ On the lawfulness of the marriage of muslim women to christian and jewish men

3 Upvotes

I have been researching on it for a few weeks and while my initial position was that it was forbidden full stop through my readings i began to change my mind. I'd like to have your thoughts on it

So first the basis is that everything is halal until proven otherwise. So to prove that it is forbidden, scholars thoughts that: the verse 2:221 forbids the marriage of both muslim men and women to mushrik women and men equally (60:10 does too and tho it says kuffar in context it is about polytheists of mecca during a very specific battle so it says the same as 2:221), by analogy scholars came to the conclusion it actually applies to all the non muslims, hence the verse 5:5, since it only mentions the case of marriage to women of the book is to be understood as a special exception made for men.

However, this interpretation among mainstream scholars was up to debate. Many considered that mushriks was only to be understood as polytheists (so people of the books are not considered as such). This view is more aligned with the overall tone of the quran because people of the books, although it is aknowledged they arent true believers like muslims due to their erronous religious belief and commiting shirk, they arent considered as mushrik and the quran made the distinction between them, considered more as halfway between kuffar and believers. So if we follows this interpretation (that seems to have been the favored interpretation of most scholars according to ibn ashur and tabari), there are actually no quranical prohibition on the marriage of muslim women to men of the books and the prohibition comes from ijma, as a few classical scholars have themselves said.

Except that consensus of scholars cannot really be used as an islamic ruling because 1.there is no consensus on what is a consensus and what is a scholar, 2. It comes from extra textual sources and rely on time and culture specific norms that are baseless in our context, 3. Ijma doesnt actually exist because i can give you like 20 scholars from the top of my head who allows interfaith marriage for muslim women, 4. Ijma can change with time, like there used to be a consensus on the allowance of slavery, child marriage and the prohibition of printed money, 5. Umar and ibn talib actually allowed each a christian woman who converted to islam to remain married to her still christian husband, if im not mistaken ibn taymiah wasnt opposed to this as well.

Back to what the quran says, if we considers that 2:221 and 60:10 indeed are self explaining and just about polytheists, then indeed nothing prohibits explicitly the marriage of muslimah to kitabi men. It is important to shows that both of these verse equally apply to both women AND men, showing here equal marriage rights and the explicit prohibition needed for these marriages. Thus when it comes to 5:5, considering the two other verses apply equal rights of men and women, and that prohibition is textually needed to forbid something like in these verses, we could deduce that the silence of the quran is to understand not as an implicit prohibition but implicit allowance.

Often the quran talks to men directly instead of women and what is said to men apply equally to women unless specified otherwise. For exemple the verse right after 5:5, 5:6 is about ritual bathing after sexual relationship, but the verse talks only of men bathing after sex with their wives, yet everyone understood that verse as meaning that women must do it too. Likewise, everyone who thought that the verse on the people of lot talks about the prohibition male to male sexual relationship, also held women to the same standards yet never have women been mentioned in this verse.

Especially since 5:5 is using gender neutral/masculine language at the beginning when adressing both female and male muslims and that the verse apply to both genders, in the two third of the verse. The food of the people of the scriptures is considered halal to both muslim men and women, and the second part of the verse on marriage says not only that chaste women from among the people of the books are halal but so are chaste women from among the muslims. Everyone understood these to apply to both men and women, yet on the 2/3 of the verse it suddenly switch to male exclusive before becoming again gender neutral in 5:6 ? Or should we understand the verse to apply to men only and thus muslim women cant eat the food of the people of the book and cant marry chaste muslim men ?

Also according to lebanese islamic scholar and linguist abdullah al ayali, in qurancic arabic there is a figure of speech (ikhlaf i think it is called) where once the audience is established you wouldnt need to say it again. E.g when 5:5 say that the food of the people of the scripture is lawful to us and ours are lawful to them, when it comes to marriage the quran only need to say the women of kitabi are lawful to us without needing to say "and your women are lawful to them" as it is already implied in the first part because of parallelism. I am not really knowledgeable in quranic arabic and i havent seen much broughting his argument so i cant speak on it, however, it would actually explain the part on our food being lawful to them as i always found it weird to include that as if kitabi would care about what the quran says.

To finish, we can all agree that the end goal of shariah is to do good, forbid oppression, and protect religion and makes justice right ? De facto what i see (and many scholars too considering they acknowledge the marriage crisis of muslimah) is that with this rule, while muslim men are free to marry who they want and love without much worry, muslim women are stuck in celibacy or abuse due to the numerical lack of muslim men for those living in the west, and even smaller of suitable muslim men due to the fact that muslim women and men went through quite different path. While the reasoning of scholars in the past made have made sense for them in the past, today they have no basis and rely completly on the time and culture they lived in as well as the assumption of women being inferior (and thus wives being slaves to husbands), and since islam is timeless and cultureless, it makes very little sense to makes our religion around what medieval urban middle eastern men said centuries ago.


r/progressive_islam 14h ago

Question/Discussion ❔ I belive that hudud punishments shall be abonded today, yet struggling with punishments for sex

4 Upvotes

Assalamualaikum

As stated in the title, I believe that today there shall be no hudud punishments. Mostly because they are not as effective as the other things we have today. Yet I'm struggling to explain it in the case of punishment for sex.

I'm not denying that sex outside marriage is sin. I am also not denying that historically it made perfect sense to set boundaries around it, since there was no DNA test, no protection, nothing.

Today...I don't think there is reasonable to have it.

Yet it feels as if no scholar agrees with me, and I don't know how to defend my position. Struggling.

Would appreciate any help, resources, anything.

Another thing, PLEASE, do not turn this comment section into a place of debate...I know it's probably unavoidable, but I'm genuinely struggling a lot, and it feels as if I'm hanging on the last thread. I don't and can't stand to see any more negativity or harshness.

Don't even know why I'm posting this or what exactly I'm expecting.


r/progressive_islam 11h ago

Advice/Help 🥺 Religious mother staying with us and wants to attend the birth of my first child

6 Upvotes

I’m (30F) 36 weeks pregnant. My mother traveled 16 hours by car to come support me in my last month of pregnancy and to stay even after delivery to support me for 40 days postpartum. This was a given and i never said no or tried to protest it. My husband was fine with the idea.

My mother is lovely, helpful and makes the best food. But we live in a very small house and she sleeps in the living room.

Mama is very religious. Like very very religious. Stays up all night praying-religious. Unfollows and stops talking to her children when they don’t live according to Islam-religious. I’ve lied to her about most aspects of my life including praying and dressing modestly. I pray when I want/can, and I dress however i’m comfortable especially during my pregnancy being in summer. But out of respect for her I don’t when she’s around. But her being in my house/home I’m considering changing my stance.

Anyway, she’ll be around for a long time. My husband doesn’t mind but he also finds her lectures to be very draining. He is not religious. I can sit and listen to her, I don’t mind, I just don’t really discuss.

I love my mama, don’t get me wrong. I’d die for the woman. She’s done everything for us/me. She’s also funny and likes to have fun. It’s just that we’re so so different. She is now asking if I want her with me at the hospital.
considering I’m physically unable to say no to her due to years and years of lying to her, I’m not sure how to say no. And to be honest, I’m not sure if I even know if I want her there or not.

I wanna hear from someone in a similar situation or has been in one: to have my super religious mother attend the birth of my daughter, or not..?

Thank you 🙏


r/progressive_islam 12h ago

Advice/Help 🥺 Please make duʿā for my friend’s friend who is going through a difficult time

6 Upvotes

Assalamu alaikum everyone.

I would like to ask you all to make duʿā for my friend’s friend who is going through an extremely difficult situation right now.

She told my friend that she was thinking about ending her life, and we are worried because she has not been responding.

I cannot share her name or personal details out of respect for her privacy, but please ask Allah to protect her, keep her safe, ease the pain in her heart, send her help, and grant her healing, hope, and strength.

Please keep her in your duʿās. May Allah have mercy on every soul struggling in silence and bring them relief.

Jazakum Allahu khayran.


r/progressive_islam 17h ago

Question/Discussion ❔ Terrified of Salafi Muslim community

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58 Upvotes

I came across this life today, and it really disheartened me. The whole life was about takfiring the sisters on the screen. It was filled with brothers calling the women on the screen kahbahs and some even said they Wernt even worth turning into concubines. The host of the live even went as far as to say that he prays one of the girls never gets guided back to Islam and for allahs curse to be upon her. Everyone in the comments were agreeing with them and saying filthy things about the sisters there.

I couldn’t help but feel defeated and helpless. I had already felt bad the women on the screen for the poor mistreatment the Muslim community has given them (mainly Khadijah) so to hear them being degraded and dragged to filth really broke my heart. It really reinforced the idea that Salafi Muslim really do dominate our community.

What do u guys think about this?


r/progressive_islam 9h ago

Opinion 🤔 Salafis* hypocrisy

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25 Upvotes

Salaam to everyone,

These Salafis are indeed hypocrites, they are lenient to Jews more than Shias, be kind to a Jewish leader but not kind to a martyr of Islam.

Indeed Salafiyyah was made by Britz.

There is no single sect that salafis have never takfired.


r/progressive_islam 6h ago

Question/Discussion ❔ Why there so much controversial Hadith ?

8 Upvotes

I have seen many people taking many Hadith and showing Hadith that say to hit their Children if they don’t pray, some Prohibition not mentionned in the Quran and other… Why is it only in Hadith and not Surat from the Quran ?


r/progressive_islam 9h ago

Question/Discussion ❔ Can Someone Help Me Understand the "Gifts on Aisha's Day" Incident?

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10 Upvotes

My husband and I spent almost our entire dinner last night talking about one hadith, and I swear it's been bothering me so much, to the extent that I've had a severe headache ever since.

We were talking about the incident where some of the Prophet (PBUH)'s wives became upset because people kept bringing gifts on Aisha's day, and ASTAGFIRULLAH... I don't know what it is about this incident, but it's really shaken me. I'm not trying to be disrespectful at all. If anything, it's the complete opposite. I care so much that I can't just brush it aside and pretend it doesn't bother me.

My husband actually said something that I thought was really beautiful. He basically said maybe Allah preserved incidents like these because He wanted us to see the Prophet (PBUH) as a real human being living through incredibly difficult situations, not some unreachable superhero that none of us could ever relate to. He was leading an Ummah, receiving revelation, settling disputes, fighting wars, caring for his family, and on top of all that, navigating a polygamous marriage where jealousy and competition between wives would naturally exist. My husband said maybe that's the whole point. Maybe Allah wanted us to see what striving for excellence looks like in the middle of a messy, complicated human life, not in some perfect fantasy where every situation has an easy answer.

Honestly...

I love that perspective.

I really do.

But I still can't seem to digest it completely.

I keep replaying the whole incident in my head and thinking... were there really no other ways this could have been handled?

Couldn't he have sat down with each wife individually and really acknowledged what she was feeling?

Couldn't he have asked people to stop bringing gifts specifically on Aisha's day if it was creating tension?

And why did his preference for Aisha become so publicly known that other people started changing their behavior because of it in the first place?

Then I think about Fatimah and what he said to her. The way I currently read those narrations, it almost feels like emotional blackmail, ASTAGFIRULLAH. Again, I'm not saying that's what it was. I'm saying that's how it lands on me emotionally right now, and I hate that it does. Instead of first acknowledging why the other wives were hurting, it feels like Fatimah was put in the middle and asked to carry a message that made me think, "How could she possibly say no to her father after hearing that?" Maybe I'm completely misunderstanding it, but that's the feeling I can't seem to shake.

And then I think about Umm Salama. This part is just as difficult for me. The way I currently understand the narrations, it almost feels like the "revelation card" was played to end the discussion, ASTAGFIRULLAH ASTAGFIRULLAH. I know that's an incredibly uncomfortable way to describe it, and I genuinely don't mean any disrespect by saying it. I'm simply trying to explain why I'm struggling so much with this incident. When I read it, part of me keeps wishing the emotions and hurt behind the complaint had been acknowledged first before the conversation effectively came to an end. Maybe that's because I'm reading it through a modern lens. Maybe I'm missing crucial context. I honestly don't know.

I genuinely feel uncomfortable even writing all of this because part of me immediately thinks, "Who am I to question the Prophet (PBUH)?", especially since I'm such a sinful woman with so many obvious and hidden flaws. But another part of me also feels that Allah gave us hearts and minds for a reason, and sincere questions aren't the same as disrespect. Pretending I'm not struggling isn't going to magically make the struggle disappear.

Maybe I'm missing important historical context. Maybe I'm reading everything through a modern lens. Maybe there are narrations or scholarly explanations that completely change how this incident should be understood. I honestly don't know.

I just know that this has affected me much more deeply than I expected.

Has anyone else here ever struggled with this particular incident? If you did, what helped you make peace with it? How did your perspective change over time? Please share something, anything, with me, I'm desperate to read or hear something that would put my heart and mind at peace, INSHALLAH!


r/progressive_islam 14h ago

Question/Discussion ❔ Imitating Allah

11 Upvotes

There is a phrase that is so often used in discussions regarding certain issues: imitating Allah. Ive been thinking a lot about this phrase and how its used.

Usually its used in the context of art and fictional stories and why they are haram. Its said that painting, sculpting or drawing animate objects is haram because you are imitating Allah. The same is said for writing fictional stories and making up characters and worlds. To me this argument is so absurd and far fetched. Aside from how stupid this reasoning is, its also frustrating because it prohibits creativity and expression. Very facist but thats not surprising.

What to do you guys think about this topic? I would love to hear your perspectives and if you've done any research regarding this issue.


r/progressive_islam 11h ago

Question/Discussion ❔ Have you ever seen a Hijazi Burqa/ Niqab (veil) before?

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15 Upvotes

I was looking at historical photos of Mecca and Medina and noticed that women rarely appeared in the streets. Like many conservative Muslim societies, it seems women generally did not go out without a specific purpose.

https://saudiarabesque.com/outdoor-traditional-dress-of-a-woman-from-hijaz-saudi-arabia/

In the few, rare photos where women do appear, they are FULLY veiled. Looking into traditional urban Hejazi dress, I found descriptions of a black outer cloak, similar to today's abaya, paired with a long white face veil resembling a historical burqa or modern niqab.

What I find strange is that some modern Saudi Hejazis deny this tradition altogether, claiming women in the Hejaz were not veiled, and lying further to claim that they were unveiled.
Yet the historical record overwhelmingly shows veiled women in the cities of Mecca, Medina, and Jeddah, while the few examples of unveiled women mostly come from remote mountain villages, which were not representative of the urban population.
Hejazi historians have also documented and preserved these garments and burqas.

It's interesting how the holy cities influenced dress and customs across much of the Muslim world. Whatever one's views today, denying that veiling was a common practice in the urban Hejaz seems inconsistent with the historical evidence.


r/progressive_islam 4h ago

Question/Discussion ❔ 2 Months Of Stress

2 Upvotes

I've been like considered myself to leave Islam for like twice this month because first of all I'm a same sex attracted guy and my faith was up and down quite recently (tho as of right now it was relatively stable) mainly because of dislike towards people like me and some other conservative Muslims out there trying to gave a bad rep towards people like me. I don't feel like sometime I don't feel safe in Islam anymore though I often tried to separate between people and Allah, It got me to the point where I was kinda traumatized when I heard a Qur'an and it remind me of the supposed Prophet Loth Story though I tried to back it off with Proggresive Interpretation, luckily I did have a plans to go to a Psychiatrist, but as of right now I want to share my experience with you guys!


r/progressive_islam 4h ago

Question/Discussion ❔ For Muslim women: how did you arrive at your view on hijab?

4 Upvotes

I’m a Muslim man, and I’m interested in how people arrive at their beliefs more than debating the ruling itself.
Most of us inherit our religion before we’re old enough to evaluate it for ourselves. Some people revisit what they were taught later in life, while others end up more convinced of what they already believed. I’m curious what that process looked like for you.
If you’ve seriously re-examined hijab as an adult, I’d love to hear:
Did your view change, or did studying the issue reinforce what you already believed?
What had the biggest influence on your conclusion—your own reading of the Qur’an, Hadith, scholarly opinions, personal experience, or something else?
If you came across scholarly disagreement about whether covering the hair is obligatory, how did you evaluate the different arguments? Did it change your thinking or strengthen your original view?
I’d especially love to hear from:
women who wear hijab,
women who chose to stop wearing it,
converts,
and anyone who has seriously revisited the evidence as an adult.
I’m much more interested in how you arrived at your conclusion than which conclusion you reached.


r/progressive_islam 17h ago

Question/Discussion ❔ What's a surah/ayah that you think is underrated or deserves to be more well-known?

6 Upvotes

If you have a surah or ayah that you think is not discussed or appreciated as much as it should be, please feel free to share it or elaborate on why you like it! Thank you very much in advance! I'm sure the responses will be very interesting to read


r/progressive_islam 17h ago

Question/Discussion ❔ Is owning and painting warhammer figurines a sin?

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1 Upvotes

r/progressive_islam 18h ago

Rant/Vent 🤬 Navigating departure from a faith I had centered my whole life and sense of worth around

4 Upvotes

When I first became irreligious towards the very end of 2024, it was almost purely due to disillusionment with God. I was going through extreme academic difficulties and after being super religious my entire childhood and early adult life attending the masjid regularly I had a very strong feeling that God had let me down as I was overwhelmed by people in college much much smarter than me and seemed to have everything figured out while my whole life fell apart. I just stopped believing God existed, partly as a form of rebellion and partly cause I simply had just given up. At the time I told myself it was just a temporary feeling and that eventually I would come back to God like I always had but I guess deep down inside I already knew that this time it was different.

That being said, I never came back from it. Though nowadays it is much more cemented, I experienced a significant shift in my worldview and everything felt like it had flipped on its head compared to two years ago. Though I am still trying to figure stuff out and its extremely difficult trying to figure out my identity , and still have deep respect for my religion especially when it’s not brain dead and dogmatic and bevels a tool of resistance to oppression in this world, I am still most certain that I will never believe in God again, at least not the Islamic/Abrahamic God or even any other deity for that matter. A lot of it comes with realizing that everything you did in your childhood now no longer means anything; because for someone who was once a devout Muslim, giving up Islam feels like giving up everything you feel like you’ve accomplished in the past along with any sense of direction in your future.
And combined with the fact that even before leaving I had extreme problems with anger control and with patience and belief that everything will get better and always felt like a pessimist, which ironically might have motivated me to give up on God altogether

I am still struggling tremendously as my academics continue to plummet; once a devout Muslim and aspiring doctor I know don't even know if I will be able to finish my major without failing out, and also the realization that this is the only life I'll ever get, that there is no afterlife, makes me constantly impatient to move out of my parents' house, get the fk out of my lame ass city, leave my past behind, and be who I want to be. But also at the same time I'm scared that that won't solve anything and I would ultimately end up at the same spot again mentally.

I know that somehow I will need to end up having to confront the extreme short temper and lack of patience I’ve always had as it’s always been a burden on my family at times and I would hate for it to potentially carry onto my wife and kids someday.


r/progressive_islam 2h ago

Question/Discussion ❔ Any progressive people in London wanna hang out?

5 Upvotes

Hi everyone. I’m 25 year old guy, living in east london, looking to make new progressive friends.

I was raised quite traditional and religious, then had a phase with arranged marriage pressure among other life things and then questioned everything.

Now I’m the worst nightmare of salafis- quranist(ish), socialist, pro feminism etc.

I feel as though growing up pakistani and religious but now being so different I don’t fit with the typical mosque crowd but also not the typical non muslim crowd.

I don’t have particular hobbies like gaming or sports, just like to hang out and chat shit, debating ideas, conversations. I don’t follow football or play valorant but ask me anything on any topic business, philosophy, pakistani politics (not a big fan of imran khan unfortunately but I can talk for sure)

Hit me up if interested


r/progressive_islam 21h ago

News 📰 Made a subreddit for Progressive Muslims who want to get married/discuss marriage

8 Upvotes

Assalamu alaikum! This subrreddit r/progressivenikkah is specifically designed for progressive Muslims to discuss marriage and relationships, as well as to find a potential partner (Inshallah). This subreddit is fundamentally friendly, with MLM, WLW, etc etc. all being affirmed and welcomed there.


r/progressive_islam 1h ago

Research/ Effort Post 📝 A Traditionalist Critique of the Islamic Prohibition on Taṣwīr (Making Drawings and Statues of Humans and Animals) - Article from Ikram Hawramani

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Upvotes
  • Original post written by Ikram Hawramani: Link

To many Muslims today, it will sound patently absurd if someone were to tell them that it is a mortal sin for them to draw a cat. But some religious scholars would tell you that drawing a cat is an act of taṣwīr (the depiction of living things in paintings, sculptures and elsewhere), a sin for which God supposedly promises the severest punishment.

Mainstream Sunni Muslims today follow the opinions of popular religious scholars like Muhammad al-Ghazali, Yusuf al-Qaradawi and Ali Gomaa, who by and large have no issue with drawings and statues. Since neither Muslims nor their respected scholars have an issue with taṣwīr, it is largely a theoretical issue within Islamic law. There is, however, a minority of puritan Muslims, especially on the internet, who often bring up this issue, claim that a severe and even violent distaste for taṣwīr is the proper Islamic stance, and who categorically reject the opinions of mainstream scholars like al-Ghazali, al-Qaradawi and Gomaa.

This article seeks to answer the needs of Traditionalist-minded Muslims on the matter of drawings and statues. Below I translate an Arabic article I discovered a few years ago by a well-informed Traditionalist author who criticizes the supposed prohibition on taṣwīr. This article is significant because when even such a Muslim can find good reasons to doubt the prohibition on taṣwīr, this acts as supporting evidence for the mainstream Islamic practice of tolerating it. The author is an anonymous user of the Traditionalist internet forum Multaqā Ahl al-Ḥadīth (The Meeting Place of the Traditionalists) who goes by the name of al-Shaykh Muḥammad ibn Amīn.

The author’s notes are in parentheses, while translator’s notes are in square brackets. I use the word “statue” to translate timthāl, a catch-all term for all statues, sculptures, effigies, murals and other three-dimensional figures depicting humans and animals. I use the word picture, painting, image and figure mostly interchangeably, choosing one over the other depending on the context.


Beginning of Translated Article | ( Link to an archived version of the Arabic original )

Ḥukm al-Ṣuwar wa-l-Tamāthīl – The Islamic Ruling Regarding Pictures and Statues

Praise be to God. There has long been a legal theoretic issue of dispute, in fact since the time of the Companions, and that issue is this: Do we enact the literal meaning of a text or do we enact its spirit? Meaning, do we apply the text in its literal and apparent sense, or do we try to understand its spirit and rationale? The Companions differed on this. You are probably aware of the hadith on the ʿaṣr prayer in the Banī Qurayẓa affair. Some of the Companion understood [the Prophet’s instructions (ﷺ)] in their apparent form, while others tried to understand the purpose behind the instructions. The Prophet (ﷺ) approved of the actions of both groups.

The issue [surrounding drawings and statues] is confused because there are texts mentioning instructions regarding the destruction of statues and the obliteration of pictures. Those who take these texts in their literal meaning would consider it obligatory to destroy every statue and obliterate every picture. Most of them [those who take the texts literally] consider photographic pictures permissible because they are merely the capturing of projections of light. And whoever prohibits this falls into contradiction since he is bringing together two mutually exclusive views.

The other opinion is that the reason for the prohibition of pictures and statues was to prevent them from becoming means of shirk [assigning divine powers to other than God] or tabarruk [considering an object a source of blessings]. Forbidding statues does not require that they should be worshiped. If they are regarded with veneration by people, then this is sufficient to prohibit them in order to prevent this veneration from developing into worship. For this reason many of the ulema [scholars] consider it permissible to place pictures in debased places. It is permissible [in their opinion] for a rug to have pictures on it since it is stepped on by people, preventing the pictures from being venerated. It is also permissible to create statues without heads, since this makes them appear deficient. And it is also permissible to place a picture in a place where it cannot be viewed. It is not permissible to place a picture (photographic or drawn) on a wall, but it is permissible to place it between the pages of a book if one can be sure that the picture is not venerated (for example if it is not the picture of a sheikh or wali). The majority permitted pictures of living things that do not have rūḥ [soul or spirit], such as plants and nature. There are even those who permitted the creation of statues and pictures if it was certain that they would not be venerated. Al-Qirāfī [a Mālikī legal theorist of the seventh century of the hijra] used to make statues himself, as he mentioned in his book Sharḥ al-Maḥṣūr.

Two types of statues are mentioned in the Book of God [the Quran]: The first type are those statues that are worshiped instead of God. These are called tamāthīl, aṣnām and anṣāb. It is obvious for us to say that these types of statues are prohibited for a Muslim to create or buy, since in such an act would be an aid in shirk. The second type are those statues that are not worshiped instead of God, such statues are not aṣnām or anṣāb. The Quran, in fact, mentions the creation of statues as one of the blessings that God bestowed upon Solomon (عَلَيْهِ ٱلسَّلَامُ):

And for Solomon the wind—its outward journey was one month, and its return journey was one month. And We made a spring of tar flow for him. And there were sprites that worked under him, by the leave of his Lord. But whoever of them swerved from Our command, We make him taste of the punishment of the Inferno. 13. They made for him whatever he wished: sanctuaries, statues, bowls like pools, and heavy cauldrons. “O House of David, work with appreciation,” but a few of My servants are appreciative. [Quran 34:12-13]

Here, God refers to statues as timthāl-s [statues] rather than aṣnām [idols], since they were not meant to be worshiped in God’s stead. This matter has to do with monotheism and faith and is a shared doctrine among all of the Prophets. There is no disagreement among the ulema that when it comes to the ʿaqāʾid [plural of ʿaqīda, beliefs regarding the nature of God and other matters] have not undergone change and that they have always been one and the same among the Prophets, for God says:

He prescribed for you the same religion He enjoined upon Noah, and what We inspired to you, and what We enjoined upon Abraham, and Moses, and Jesus: “You shall uphold the religion, and be not divided therein.” ... [Quran 42:13]

Many authentic hadith narrations exist that insist that the muṣawwirīn [figure-makers] are in the Hellfire, and that they will be among those who suffer the severest punishment. The reason for their punishment according to the texts of the hadith narrations is that they imitate God’s creation, and muḍāhāt [the sin the texts accuse them of] is the same as mushākala [the creation of the likeness of something], meaning that they create sculptures in the likeness of God’s creation, so that on the Day of Judgment they are told: “Bring to life what you have created!” Al-Nawawī says in his Commentary on Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim (14/84): “They [i.e. the ulema] agreed on prohibiting all [figures] that have shadows and on the necessity of changing them.” But Ibn Ḥajar adds in al-Fatḥ [his commentary on Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī] (10/388): “This consensus does not include children’s toys.”

There is conclusive evidence that the Prophet (ﷺ) used pillows and utensils that had pictures on them, but he used to remove and wipe out pictures of crosses. It is also proven that he permitted children’s toys in the form of small statues/dolls, as is narrated from the Mother of the Believers Aisha, may God be pleased with her. Qaḍī ʿIyāḍ mentions that the majority of jurists permitted buying these dolls for the training of girls in matters pertaining to childcare, which is recognized as a worthy aim in Islamic law. While his information is correct regarding the permissibility of dolls, his reasoning is incorrect, since Aisha mentions a horse that had two wings; what relationship does that have with children’s education? The correct opinion is that children’s playthings are permissible for males and females without any karāha (legal disapproval), since they [dolls] are far away from the potential for veneration. One of our teachers used to say: “Children’s wisdom is greater than that of many adults, for you never find a child worshiping the doll he or she plays with.”

But if statues are an imitation of God’s creations, or creating their likeness, then that makes them forbidden and is considered a mortal sin according to the authentic narrations on the matter. But creating a likeness of God’s creations or imitating them could be done through making sculptures of soulless things like the sun, the moon, mountains and trees, and through making girls’ dolls and similar things that the texts explicitly permit. For this reason some of the ulema say that what is intended are those who create statues or make pictures with the aim of challenging God’s power, or those who think that they have a similar power to create as God has. God shows such people their incapacity by asking them to bring life to what they create. In support of this, Ibn Ḥajar, in al-Fatḥ al-Bārī [his aforementioned commentary on Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī], regarding God’s saying in His ḥadīth qudsī: “And who is greater in injustice than one who goes in order to create a creature like My creation?” interprets “goes” here to mean “aims”. According to this, the forbidden thing here is related to the intention of the maker [of the statue, etc.], whether the product is a statue or a hand-drawing of any image. It is mentioned in the Mawsūʿa al-Fiqhīya  [The Encyclopedia of Islamic Jurisprudence, a 45-volume work by Kuwait’s Awqāf ministry including opinions from all of the four schools of Islamic jurisprudence, completed in 2005 after 40 years of work], in Bāb al-Taṣwīr [the chapter on figure-making]:

The majority of ulema agree that prohibiting figures does not imply a prohibition on possessing them or using them, for regarding the process of making figures of things that have souls, it is mentioned that figure-makers are cursed and that they will be punished in the Hellfire and that they will be among the most severely punished among the people, but nothing is mentioned regarding possessing pictures, and there is no accepted evidence for the existence of a reason for prohibiting the user of such figures. Despite that, there are narrations that prohibit the possession and use of pictures, but they do not mention a punishment or equivalent that imply that possessing figures is a mortal sin. For these reasons, the judgment regarding the possessor of pictures whose possession is forbidden is that they have committed a small sin... Among those who were aware of the difference between figure-making and the [mere] possession of figures were: al-Nawawī... and most of the jurists are in agreement with this.

As for narrations saying that the angels do not enter a house in which there is a figure or a dog, the likely intent are the angels of revelation and not others. For this reason Ibn Ḥibbān made this restricted to the Prophet (ﷺ), for the angels that are assigned to each individual would enter such houses, and God knows best.

The majority of the jurists have permitted the user of statues and pictures in houses if they are not placed on curtains or walls with the intent to view them with veneration, and if they are subject to debasement as in people stepping on them and so on. ʿIkrima says: “They used to dislike statues set up on pedestals, but they saw no issues with those which feet could step on.” ʿIkrima here is transmitting from [mentioning the opinion of] the Companions. Muḥammad ibn Sīrīn said: “They used to see figures that were spread out or stepped upon as different from those that were set up on pedestals.” Ibn ʿAbd al-Barr says in the Tamhīd (21/199): “This is the most balanced among the opinions and the most moderate in this matter and most of the ulema are in agreement with it. Whoever is fatigued with narrations [unclear meaning] will not oppose this interpretation. This is the best of what I believe about this matter. God is the helper toward the correct opinion.”

It appears that the permissibility of leaving alone figures and statues that are not venerated is the creed of the majority of the Companions, even their consensus. For they did not destroy statues and pictures in the countries of Persia, the Levant and Iraq, but they did so in India and the Arabian countries. That is because these things were not worshiped in Persia, the Levant and Egypt. They did not touch those enormous edifices and great numbers of statues which remain there to this day. Consider this anecdote:

Saʿd bin Abī Waqqāṣ (the conqueror of Iraq and one of those promised Paradise) (رضي الله عنه) entered the palace of Khosrow II in al-Madāʾin [Ctesiphon, the Persian capital, near modern-day Baghdad]. In that palace there were many figures on the walls and many statues. He did not destroy any of them, in fact they remain where they are to our day. None of the Companions criticized him or anyone else for this. This is a consensus from them regarding the permissibility of letting such things remain undestroyed if they are not worshiped in God’s stead and they are not ascribed holiness. Al-Tabarī says in his Tarīkh (2/464): “When Saʿd entered al-Madāʾin and saw its desertedness, and went to Khosrow’s hall, he went on to recite: “How many gardens and fountains did they leave behind? And plantations, and splendid buildings. And comforts they used to enjoy. So it was; and We passed it on to another people.”  He performed ṣalāt al-fatḥ [ritual prayer performed after a conquest], which is not performed communally. He performed eight rakʿāt [units of prayer, plural of rakʿa] without pausing between them, and turned the hall into a masjid [mosque or prayer hall]. In it there were statues made of gypsum, of men and horses. Neither he nor the Muslims opposed their presence and left them where they were. It is said: Saʿd completed the prayer on the day he entered it, for he wanted to take residence in it [or take it as a seat of the new government]. The first Friday in which the Muslims gathered for Friday prayers in Iraq in al-Madāʾin was in the year 16 [of the hijra].” Also see the al-Dhahabi’s History of Islam (3/158).

In Khosrow’s hall there were colorful and life-sized pictures done in great detail. These pictures survive to our day. These pictures were, of course, not buried in the sand, rather, numerous companions entered this palace and stayed in it. How did they then not see the pictures which can be seen clearly to our day? Even if they were not able to destroy the pictures, they could have blotted them out through white-washing, and this does not require great expenses nor a large number of workers. It would have been easy for the ruling power to command that the walls be repainted. There is no other interpretation other than that they understood the hadith narrations regarding the destruction of figures as being specific to those which were accorded veneration or were worshiped in God’s stead. These pictures continued to be viewed, being described by historians and writers. Yāqūt al-Ḥamawī says in his Muʿjam al-Buldān [his famous geographical dictionary] (1/295): “In the hall there was Khosrow Anūshirvān picture, and that of Caesar king of Antioch, who was besieging it and fighting its people.”

The famous Abbasid poet al-Buḥturī describes them in his wonderful qaṣīda al-sīnīya [a type of ode]. He describes these pictures as having such detail that one could imagine them real, so that one would want to touch them to reassure themselves that they were mere pictures. He says in his ode:

Sorrows attend my saddle. I direct

my stout she-camel to Madāʾin [Ctesiphon].

When you see a panel of the Battle at Antioch,

you tremble among Byzantines and Persians.

The Fates stand still, while Anūshirvān

leads the ranks onward under the banner

In a deep green robe over yellow.

It appears dyed in saffron.

The eye depicts them very much alive:

they have between them speechless signs.

My wonder about them boils till

my hand explores them with a touch.

The question here is: Why did the Companions let the pictures in Khosrow’s hall remain? Those who disagree with us are incapable of answering this. One of them says that we should only follow hadith and disregard the actions of the Companions. This is strange, for is it imaginable that the Companions would randomly follow their own inclinations? Aren’t the actions of the Companions and their sayings an interpretation and illustration of the teachings of the Prophet (ﷺ)? We have not abandoned the Prophet’s sayings (ﷺ), and neither did the Companions, may God be pleased with them. Rather, they understood the texts in a way different from those who disagree with us. It is the Companions who narrated those hadith narrations to us. And it is they to whom those narrations were directed, therefore their understanding takes precedence in matters of dispute. And the ijmaʿ [consensus] of the Companions is one of the acknowledged sources of Islamic legislation. Additionally, all of the 73 groups claim to follow the Quran and the Sunnah, but the distinguishing characteristic of al-firqa al-nājiya [“the group that attains salvation”, i.e. from the hellfire] is that the group follows the Companions of the Prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him).

As for the claim that during all of those years they were too busy [to destroy the paintings and statues], I do not think the person saying that believes it himself, it is just that he cannot find a better argument. Was it too difficult for Saʿd bin Abī Waqqāṣ or one of the rulers after him to command one of the slaves to repaint those walls that had pictures? As for denying that the Companions had seen the pictures, this is obstinacy and denialism, for Khosrow’s hall is the biggest building in al-Madāʾin, and the fact of the Muslims entering it is a well-known and multiply-transferred piece of information that no one denies. It was full of pictures and statues and poems were written about it. This same hall became the center of government in Iraq until the building of the city of Kūfa was finished.

The sheikh Dr. Aḥmad al-Ghāmidī answered this criticism by saying: “These pictures and statues were not worshiped aṣnām, they were rather figures depicting past events, and perhaps there was a lesson or benefit in letting them remain.” I say that it might be so, and using the fact of their not being worshiped in his reasoning is the same as what I say. He also said: “Fifth, the prohibited thing is the creation of pictures. As for the narration from Ali, may God be pleased with him, regarding the destruction of figures, it refers to three-dimensional statues.” But they weren’t pictures only; the hall of Khosrow was full of statues as is the wont of kings. Ali himself ruled Iraq and did not order the destruction of any of its statues.

The mention of Khosrow’s palace is merely an example. In reality great statues have been allowed to remain not only in Khosrow’s palaces but in [the rest of] Iraq, the Levant, Egypt and Persia. Yes, certain worshiped statues were destroyed in Sindh [a province of modern-day Pakistan] and Transoxania when the Companions discovered peoples who worshiped them, as happened in the Arabian peninsula itself. But other than these, then no. A comical event was that one contemporary caller for the destruction of statues claimed that the Pharaonic statues had been buried in the sand and were not visible during the time of the Companions! Saying the in fact they hadn’t been seen until the past two hundred years. In this saying is negligence toward the books of history, for history books are full of information regarding the familiarity of Muslims with these statues. Al-Jāḥīẓ (who was a contemporary of the imams Mālik, al-Shafiʿī and Aḥmad) enumerated the wonders of the world, saying in his Ḥusn al-Muḥāḍara (3/65): “The ṣanam [statue of religious significance, singular of aṣnām] of the two pyramids is Balhawīya, also called Balhunayt [?] and called Abū l-Hawl by the common people. It is said that it is placed there as a talisman so that the sand would not overcome the Giza.” Yaqūt al-Ḥamawī in his Muʿjam al-Buldān (5/401) says: “On the corner of one of them (meaning the pyramids) there is a great ṣanam that is called Bulhayt [?]. It is said that it is a talisman for the sand so that it would not overcome the area of Giza. It depicts a human head and neck, and the top of its shoulders are like that of the lion. And it is very large. It has a pleasant appearance, as if its creator had recently completed it. It is painted a red color that survives to this day despite the great length of time and the distance of the years.” Also see the words of Ibn Faḍl in Masālik al-Abṣār (1/235) and the words of al-Baghdādī in al-Ifāda (p. 96).

The number of the Companions who entered Egypt was greater than three hundred, as al-Suyūṭī confirmed in Ḥusn al-Muḥāḍara (1/166). The first city they besieged was ʿAin Shams [today a suburb of Cairo] as is mentioned in Ibn Kathīr’s al-Bidāya wa-l-Nihāya (7/98). It is filled with large statues as ʿAbd al-Laṭīf al-Baghdādī mentioned in the sixth century [of the hijra], saying in his travelogue (p. 96): “Of that [type?] are the antiquities in ʿAin Shams. It is a small city the ruins of whose surrounding wall are visible, it appears that it was a place of worship. In it there are enormous statues carved from rock. The length of a statue is around thirty cubits, and its limbs are proportionally large. There is much writing on those rocks and figures of humans and animals of the unintelligible [ancient Egyptian] writing.” The Companions resided in al-Fusṭāṭ [today part of Cairo] and Giza, which are very close to the pyramids. It is worth mentioning that the pyramids themselves were covered in the language of the pharaohs, some of whose letters are in the shapes of birds and animals. Al-Baghdādī says about the pyramids (p. 92): “Upon those rocks there are writings in the unknown ancient pen, such that I did not find anyone in the towns of Egypt who knew of anyone who understood them. There is a great amount of these writings, such that if what is written was transmitted to pages of books, they would take up ten thousand pages.” Al-Masʿūdī mentions similar things in his history (1/361) and Ibn Taghrībirdī in al-Nujūm al-Zāhira (1/41).

Judging from all of that, the Companions who entered Egypt certainly saw the Sphinx and the pictures on the pyramids. These in addition to the statues in ʿAin Shams, about which there is no doubt that they saw them after its conquest and their entering the city. Denying that they saw them is obstinacy. These, in addition to the statues in the pharaonic cities of Memphis and others. It is more likely than not that they saw these too, due to the great number of the Companions and the length of their stay in Egypt. And it is these about which al-Baghdādī says (p. 102): “As for the statues, the greatness of their number and the enormity of their size, it is a matter that is beyond description and computation. The accuracy of their shapes, the meticulousness of their aspects and the carving upon them of natural facets is in truth a matter for wonder.” Despite that, we have not seen them [the Companions] destroy any of them. So were the Muslims incapable of destroying those statues? This is absolutely false. That is because they were able to destroy the fortress of Babylon and the walls of Nahavand in Persia, and they drilled through [the walls of] many of the fortresses they besieged, which were great fortresses that had armed guards that shot arrows at the Muslims during their drilling and destruction of them. Couldn’t they at least disfigure the faces of the statues? If this saying [that the Companions were unable to destroy the statues] is not an insult to the Companions then I do not know what is. Is it conceivable that non-Muslims were capable of building while the Muslims incapable of mere demolition? This is impossible.

To summarize, it is not permissible to hang any picture (including photographic pictures) if this has the potential of leading to veneration and the expectation of blessings from it (especially the pictures of sheikhs and leaders). But if one is safe from that (as in the case of one hanging his own picture or that of his child) then there is no issue with it. Any pictures that are in a place unlikely to be venerated, as on pillows and rugs, then there is no distaste for that. The same is true of statues. And there is no issue with children’s toys and dolls, for such things are not venerated. And if statues accomplish a benefit recognized by the Sharīʿa, such as for teaching or training (such as those used in schools for illustration and clarification), then they go from being mubāḥ [not forbidden] to mustaḥabb [recommended], they may even be wājib [strongly recommended or compulsory] in certain cases if they are a means of understanding the sciences and advancing in them. And God knows what the most correct opinion is.

End of the translated article


Translator’s Conclusion

It appears from the above discussion that one can conclude that the issue of taṣwīr is one of context. If a figure is accorded veneration for supposed metaphysical powers, it is prohibited to have it and use it. If it is not, then there is no issue with it. This means that the issue of taṣwīr is quite irrelevant to the lives of most educated Muslims, who find the idea of venerating a picture or statue


r/progressive_islam 6h ago

History Ibn Khaldūn, Crone, Donner & Hoyland: Same Problem, Different Verdicts

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9 Upvotes

r/progressive_islam 5h ago

Mod Announcement 📢 Introducing a new rule. “Rule 4: Don't discourage users from sharing valuable informations”

9 Upvotes

Someone recently posted a very informative effort post on our subreddit. And as a matter of huge shame, the most upvoted comment in that thread was this:

Do you really need all these resources for common sense

Seriously, someone took so much time and effort to find out all these informations from various different sources, compile those informations and post them here so you guys can read them easily for free, and that's the reply you had to say? And not only that, but 7-8 people even upvoted this comment! Unbelievable.

This is not the first time it has happened however. And this behaviour is often seen among some of the Quranist/Quran only users, when the highly informative post contains a lot of informations from scholars or hadiths.

Therefore, we are introducing a new rule.

Rule 4: Don't discourage users from sharing valuable informations

Comments that discourage users from sharing valuable, well-researched, or high-effort content are not permitted. Remarks that belittle, mock, or dismiss the hard work & effort behind a “Research/ Effort Post” will be removed, & the commenter may receive a temporary ban. We expect members to help maintain an environment where thoughtful, informative contributions are encouraged

If someone is found to be writing such discouraging comments under highly informative effort posts or comments, their comments will be removed and they may receive a temporary ban (or even a permanent ban if such behaviour continues).

Just because a highly informative effort post seems unnecessary to you because of your religious sect or set of beliefs, it doesn’t mean that other people won't find that post helpful. If a highly informative effort post seems unnecessary to you, then refrain from commenting under that post. But such discouraging comments will not be tolerated.