Ancient greek sexual ideals were that men were always the active partner. And women the passive. Boys could also be passives. But a Greek man who allowed himself to be mounted and therefore behaved like a passive was considered shameful
Absolutely no. Where did you find such a notion? Male homosexual relationships were framed according to the status and autonomy of the parts involved. During classical Greece, homosexuality among warriors was often celebrated as an expression of loyalty and friendship; nobody cared about active and passive. Even in a pederast relationship like
Harmodius and Aristogeiton's, the former, that is, the younger eromenos, is framed as a warrior and heroic tyrannicide.
The concept you are referring to is common in different places and times but it was not prevalent in Greek homosexuality.
That's Rome!! You're talking about Rome, they are the ones that framed it according to status and autonomy.
nobody cared about active and passive
They absolutely did. It was literally their ideal, especially in Sparta which is where we are talking about not later greek periods, and that ideal was an older man with a younger boy.
We have no primary sources about homosexuality in ancient Greece. What we know about it is through classical Greece writings, which is good, but clearly has cultural injections from its period and is not a coeve primary source. Pederastia in Sparta (in classical age) was framed as a mentorship relation and usually they stressed there was no sex involved, which probably was false, but that's not the point. Again, where did you find this concept of active vs passive in classical Greece? That's not something I can remember from classical sources. Maybe it comes from satire?
Rome's attitudes toward homosexuality came from cultural hellenisation of the educated elites. The status and autonomy angle is well attested in classical writings from Greece.
We have no primary sources for Sparta, they did not write about themselves. So what exactly do you mean we have no primary sources for ancient Greece . . . ? Because there's plenty of ancient greek writers, including those that wrote about the pederastry and pederastic relationships.
Only Xenophon stated that the relationships between Spartan men (20 or so yrs old) and the boys should be chaste, he also admitted it likely wasnt. It was also a fact that if the boy refused the attentions of an older man he could well end up finding himself banished from attaining citizenship from being refused access to the communal clubs, which means he was incredibly vulnerable to manipulation.
The sex was meant to be between the thighs (it likely wasn't limited to this), but a grown male citizen allowing himself to be penetrated anally was considered shameful.
Again, where did you find this concept of active vs passive in classical Greece?
Research. It's literally common terminology even digging through the Askhistorians sub will produce it. The male in ancient Greece was considered the active partner, the older, the dominant, the seducer and the penetrator. The boy or woman was the passive, the submissive, seduced and the penetrated. And romes attitudes were different on a lot of levels, derived from does not equal the same
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u/FuzzyFrogFish 4h ago
Ancient greek sexual ideals were that men were always the active partner. And women the passive. Boys could also be passives. But a Greek man who allowed himself to be mounted and therefore behaved like a passive was considered shameful