r/firewater Aug 25 '19

Methanol: Some information

1.8k Upvotes

This post is meant to clarify one of the most common questions asked by new distillers: WHAT ABOUT METHANOL?

First and foremost: you cannot die (or get sick, go blind, etc) from improperly made distilled alcohol via methanol poisoning. Neither can you make something dangerous by freezing it and removing some ice. Not only is it not possible, it is a widely perpetuated myth that has existed since the days of prohibition (and not before, interestingly enough). Other than the obvious ethanol overdose, all poisonous alcohol that has ever been consumed, has been adulterated, or was in some other way contaminated. It was not the fault of poor distillation procedures. How you run your still will not affect how safe your product is. It might affect how good the end result is, but that's where it stops.

So, methanol. Everyones first fear, and the number one search subject when it comes to "moonshine". This subject is brought up a lot in this sub and elsewhere on Reddit. Everyone knows all about it, its just one of those common knowledge things, right? It turns out, not so much. So...

Methanol - What is it?

Methanol is a very commonly used fuel, solvent and precursor in industry. It is produced via the synthesis gas process which can use a wide variety of materials to create methanol. Methanol is the simplest of all the alcohols.

Methanol is poisonous to the human body in moderate amounts. The LD50 of methanol in humans is 810 mg/kg. It is metabolized into formaldehyde by the liver, via the alcohol dehydrogenase process. In excess, these byproducts are severely toxic. Formaldehyde further degrades into formic acid, which is the primary toxic compound in methanol poisoning. Formic acid is what produces nerve damage, and causes the blindness (and death) associated with acute methanol poisoning.

One of the treatments for methanol poisoning, is the introduction of ethanol. Ethanol has a preferential path in the alcohol dehydrogenase metabolic pathway. This means that if ethanol and methanol are consumed, the ethanol will be metabolized first, in preference over the methanol. This allows some of the methanol to be excreted by the kidneys before being metabolized into its toxic related compounds. There are far more effective medical treatments available, such as dialysis and administering drugs that block the function of alcohol dehydrogenase.

Is it in my booze? How do I remove it?

There is one way in which your alcohol will be tainted with some amount of methanol naturally, and that is by using fruits which contain pectin. Pectin can be broken down into methanol by enzymes, either introduced artificially or from micro organisms. This will produce some measurable amount of methanol in your ferment, and subsequent distillate. However its not going to be in toxic quantities, any more than what you may have in a jug of apple juice. In fact, fruits are the primary way in which methanol is introduced into your body. In tiny quantities it is mostly harmless, and you can no more remove the methanol from an apple pie than you can from your apple brandy. Boiling (or freezing) apple juice doesn't convert it into deadly eye sight destroying horror juice. Cooking doesn't suddenly veer into danger when you collect vapor from a boiling pot. If you've ever made jam, or wine, or fruit salad, you've produced methanol.

So, where does that leave us? How do I get rid of this nasty substance in my distillate? You don't. If it is there, you cannot remove it. It is quite commonly believed that you can toss the first bit of alcohol off the still to remove this compound, the "foreshots." This is usually considered the first 50-100ml or so, depending on batch size. It smells really bad, tastes really bad, and is something most would agree should be discarded. However, it will not contain the "methanol" if there is any in your wash. Or more precisely, it will not contain any more of it than any other portion of the run. Beside which, methanol tastes very similar to ethanol, though slightly sweeter. If your wash is tainted with methanol, your entire run will be as well. Relying on some eyeball measurement to make your product safe to consume is not going to work. This is just distiller folklore passed down quite widely. You may hear about this on a distillery tour, from professionals, on Youtube and in books about distilling. All of them are just repeating what they have heard someone else say, or read somewhere, and assumed it to be fact. There is truth here, but buried in misunderstanding of the processes involved specifically with these substances.

This is the very reason that methanol was used to poison ("denature") industrial ethanol during prohibition, as it cannot be removed easily by normal distillation processes. If you could just redistill this very cheap, legal and plentiful solvent to make drinking alcohol, it wouldn't be the very potent message and deterrent that was hoped for by those who did this. You can read more about the history of this intentional poisoning of commercial alcohol in the Chemists War. It is also during this period where we begin to hear about methanol being in poorly made moonshine. This is not a coincidence.

So, distillers attempted to understand this misinformation, and attempt to correct or explain why their process was correct. Thus was born the idea that tossing some portion of the run makes it safe from this suddenly present and scary substance. Cuts went from being a quality procedure, to a serious process to save lives. By "tossing the first bit." And then distillers went about their centuries old processes like always, but this time "doing it right" and hence making safe alcohol.

The reason it is so widely believed that tossing the heads works to remove methanol, has to do with the boiling points of ethanol, methanol, and water. Pure methanol boils at 64.7C. Pure ethanol boils at 78.24C. Water boils at 100C. Distilling separates things based on their boiling points, right? Yes, it does, but it is a bit more complex than that. When you boil a mixture of methanol, ethanol and water, you are not boiling any of these compounds individually. You are boiling a solution containing all of them, and they will each have an affect on the other with regards to boiling point and enrichment behavior. Methanol and ethanol are quite similar in molecular structure. Methanol can be written as CH3-OH. Ethanol can be written as CH3-CH2-OH. You'll notice that methanol lacks this extra CH2 component. This changes its behavior when in the presence of water, specifically its polarity, compared to ethanol. Rather than repeat all of this, here is a passage from this paper on the reduction of methanol in commercial fruit brandies:

A similar behaviour would be expected for methanol for both alcohols are not very different in molecule structure. There is, however, a significant difference regarding all three curves in figure 2: methanol contents keep a higher value for a longer time than ethanol contents. In figures 3 and 4 this observation is made clear: Methanol, specified in ml/100 ml p.a., increases during the donation, while the ratio ethanol : methanol is lowering down. This effect seems to be rather surprising regarding the different boiling points of the two substances: methanol boils at 64,7°C, while ethanol needs 78,3°C. So methanol would be regarded to be carried over earlier than ethanol. The molecule structures however, show another aspect: ethanol has got one more CH2-group which makes the molecule less polar. So, concerning polarity, methanol can be ranged between water and ethanol and has therefore in the water phase a distillation behaviour different from ethanol. This may explain the behaviour which is rather contrary to the boiling points. This is no single appearance, because for example ethylacetate with a boiling point of 77 °C, or, as an extreme case, isoamylacetate with 142 °C are even carried over much earlier than methanol. Therefore methanol can not be separated using pot-stills or normal column-stills. Only special columns can separate methanol from the distillate (4.3). Similar observations concerning the behaviour of methanol during the distillation have already been made by Röhrig (33) and Luck (34). Cantagrel (35) divides volatile components into eight types concerning distillation behaviour characterized by typical curves, which were mainly confirmed by our experiments. As for methanol, he claims an own type of behaviour during the distillation corresponding to our results.

What this means is that if there is methanol present, it will be present throughout the run, with a higher occurrence in the tails as ethanol is depleted and water concentration increases. Its distillation is more dependent on how much water is present rather than simply comparing boiling points between ethanol and methanol. This in conjunction with the fact that ethanol and water cannot be separated completely due to their forming an azeotrope, means water is always in the system. So tossing your foreshots or heads will not remove methanol from your solution. The good news is that methanol is almost entirely absent in dangerous amounts. Consider drinking beer, wine, or apple cider. There are no heads cut made to these products. Pectinase is routinely added to wine, and methanol is a direct byproduct of this addition. They are safe to consume in this form, and will be safe to consume after being distilled. Boiling and concentrating the liquid by leaving some water behind isn't going to transform something safe to drink into something toxic. If it is toxic after being distilled, it most certainly was toxic before being distilled.

To be clear, however, this is not to say that making cuts is unnecessary. There are other compounds that you certainly can remove by cutting heads. Acetone, ethyl acetate, acetaldehyde and others. None are present in dangerous amounts, but the quality of your alcohol will be greatly enhanced by discarding these fractions. Making cuts is one of the most important activities a distiller can learn to do properly! Cutting and blending is making liquor, not only the act of distilling. Just understand that it isn't a life or death situation should you undershoot your foreshot cut by some amount. It will just taste bad, and might give you more of a headache the next day. You can taste test every single bit of alcohol that comes out of your still, from the first drops to the last.

Removing the foreshots does not remove "the methanol." You can just consider the foreshots part of the heads, because they are. There are hundreds of thousands of hobby brewers, vintners and distillers around the world who have been making and consuming fermented and distilled products for centuries. If this were actually a real problem, we would be awash in reports of wide spread poisonings. Instead we have reports here and there of isolated incidents, which are always traceable back to some incident unrelated to how much heads somebody did or did not cut.

The only way to know if there is methanol present is via lab analysis. Smell, taste, color of flame, vapor temp, none of this will tell you any meaningful information about methanol content and are just old shiner-wives tales. If you would like to have your distillate, beer or wine tested for dangerous compounds, there are many labs available that offer these services. This way you know what you are producing and are not relying on conflicting information found online. Here is one such lab offering these services, and there are many more servicing the public and industry. No need to take my, or anyone elses, word as absolute truth. If you really want to know what is in your product, this is the only way.

Having said all that...

So, CAN methanol be removed from a mixture of methanol, ethanol and water via distillation in any way? Yes, it can, contrary to everything I just said, there are even specialized stills called "demethylizer columns" which can do just this. They are very large plated columns (70+ plates), which can operate as a step in the distillation process in very large industrial facilities. This is a continuous middle fed column of high proof / low water feed, with steam injection at the bottom and hot water injection at the top, which has the sole purpose of moving a more concentrated cut containing methanol into a particular take off point with the treated alcohol taken off as the bottom product. This is largely done to ensure compliance with the laws about methanol content in neutral ethanol production, or in other processes in which reclamation of these substances is desired. There are other methods that can be used to remove methanol from an ethanol/water mixture, but that goes beyond the scope of this post and generally do not make consumable results. None of these procedures are properly repeatable at home or at moderate scale commercial distilling, nor are they even really necessary at any scale unless you have a badly tainted input feed.

On small scale reflux columns, there will be a small spike of methanol in the heads if the column is left in equilibrium (100% reflux) for a long while, and only if methanol is present, as the state at the top of the packing/plates is very low water and boiling point separation can occur more easily for methanol. In general though, these columns are too small, and methanol quantities far too low, for this to be a major concern. Methanol will spike in both heads and tails on this kind of column, leaving the general heart cut with a steady amount throughout. Even with huge industrial columns, the specialized demethylizer column is additionally used in the process because you cannot reliably remove methanol using the normal procedures typically done when making cuts for quality purposes. Methanol removal is treated separately and requires its own process to concentrate and extract using specialized equipment.

In conclusion, or TLDR

ALL cases of methanol poisoning attributed to "improperly" made ethanol, are the result of contaminated product. Not due to improper distillation, but due to intentional (either misguided, or malicious) adulteration of the ethanol, or some other contamination due to environment or ingredients. Commercial ethanol products are generally poisoned either via methanol, or via flavor tainting, or both (usually both, so you know its not to be consumed). Every report of methanol poisoning via "moonshine" was due to this contamination. If you can find evidence to the contrary, I would love to see it. Please let me know if you believe this info to be incorrect, and have evidence to that effect. That is, other than unsourced speculative news articles, television shows and Youtube channels. What I have presented here is how I understand the facts, but I am always open to learning something new.

Its unfortunate that we still have this lingering stigma based on sensationalist press beginning during alcohol prohibition, but this is where we are. So you can relax, have a home brew, and get on with your new hobby or business, and not fret about the big scary monster that is methanol. Now you just have to worry about all the other stuff that you can screw up :-)


r/firewater 3h ago

Look what's happening today

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39 Upvotes

Just got start


r/firewater 4h ago

Just to let people know about steam injection

4 Upvotes

I did not realize that steam injection was not as popular as it is around here. It is simple with what we have for years called a steam ring. But North Georgia Still Co. posted some videos and some shorts about how to make a steam wand using two pots. Phillbilly (Moonshine) did a video on one he threw together with two kegs in less than a day. I know a few people have wandered through asking about steam injection. Thought looking those videos up might help.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3nTXNuafzAc

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Nf-Ht9spMg

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/71JpX2dYD4M

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lihGbO3d7UY


r/firewater 21h ago

Ram Ranch Distilled Mead

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99 Upvotes

Going to run some experiments with aged/toasted Gambel, Hungarian and French oak. Why would you distill 11 year old mead? A lot of it was sitting in plastic containers and I didn't want to give my family it. I don't drink.

Shine on, muddafuggaz

Smells like straight booze (not fuel so that's nice). The aroma is clearly honey. I didn't use a thumper on this run. I could see adding a few drops of honey just to backsweeten enough for the flavor to come out a little bit more. I used to like making honey-mint shine. Just shine plus honey and mint leaves (removed after a bit)


r/firewater 5h ago

Northern California?

2 Upvotes

I have dozens and dozens of peach and nectarine trees near Chico California, too many of which have fruit falling off of because I can’t sell it quick enough. I’d like to find somebody interested in trading.


r/firewater 17h ago

Newb question

6 Upvotes

I was given 30 4 litre milk jugs of shine from a friend that was moving out of the country. When it comes to terms used and information it’s hard to sift through and ask what I’m looking for, cause I have no idea what I’m talking about. I have zero knowledge, but a garage full of moonshine.

My question is: A - is there any sort of recipes for finished product that I can mix with to create some different types of flavours and dilute the alcohol content?

Follow up question would be: what key worlds am I searching for to find these such recipes; also, is there any personal favourites out there.

One other question I have is what do I have to be mindful of with contamination or and sorts of issues that may arise from trying some recipes of my own.


r/firewater 1d ago

Question about brewing mash

4 Upvotes

I've had a good amount of experience in brewing wines and meads, but this will be my first time distilling. With brewing, I find I can drink the product and it will get me drunk after 2 weeks of distilling, but will taste pretty nasty unless I put it into secondary and leave for at least another week or two. Does this rule apply to fermenting mash as well? I've just made a very simple sugar + water mash that's approaching the two week mark. Should I distill it now? Or put it into secondary for a week or two? And will this affect the flavor of the final shine?


r/firewater 1d ago

Add to much powdered ginger help

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7 Upvotes

I accidentally added too much powdered ginger to my sugar wash I was originally planning to make ginger bug but didn't have any fresh ginger so I decided to add some powdered ginger to my sugarwash only to accidentally add too much only then did my brother mention that powdered yeast hinders fermentation. I already activated and fed 7 grams of yeast to the brew on top of the 7 inside. Any Advice ? fyi the brown sediment is the powdered ginger. It's a two liter bottle filled to top after I add the activated yeast


r/firewater 2d ago

Rum advice

11 Upvotes

Hey guys! I’m reading up on making rum. There’s a lot I’ve read and want to try but I have no experience with any of it. I’m just gonna lay out some strategies and goals and I’m hoping some people here will have some input and advice.

I’d like to get something that’s good to drink white pretty quickly, just to get into the groove of things. I’ve read that straight brown sugar with nutrient and bread yeast is good for this. I’d also like to work with some straight up blackstrap molasses to see what flavor that produces.

But that’s not really the end goal here. I want to actually get into some funky complex rums.

I’ve heard about dunder and saving it to use for subsequent batches. I’ve heard about muck pits to develop organic acids for esterfication. What I don’t really know how to do is any of that.

Sounds to me like rum using dunder is basically like making a sour mash whiskey, is that right? Does using fresh dunder have a noticeable effect on the end product?

As for muck pits, I’m assuming you start with some dunder and help it get inoculated with bacteria by additions like old fruit or solids from a rum ferment that you racked off of. I don’t really know how to take care of a pit though.

I’ve also read (on homedistiller.org) about a guy continually saving the tails from a run and adding them back into the next run. He claimed that over a few generations this concentrated so many fusel oils in the wash that they were forced over during the hearts cut. He found this desirable. What are your thoughts on this?

I found a recipe, again on homedistiller.org, that I’d like to get feedback on here.

It said to make a blackstrap wash, strip it, run tight tight tight cuts on the spirit run. Then use the dunder to make a straight sugar wash. Strip it, add the feints from the blackstrap batch to the low wines, run the same tight tight tight cuts as the blackstrap wash and then blend the two distillates.

That recipe seems easy enough, should yield a lot of dunder to start a pit with, and should yield a lot of tails to blend into subsequent batches.

Anyway, with my stated goals do you think that’s a decent place to start? And any advice on any run specific part of the process is much appreciated.


r/firewater 2d ago

Distillers down under who want a badmo barrel but don't want to pay half the cost in shipping

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32 Upvotes

I got myself a couple of badmo barrels back in 2024 or there abouts - last serial number was in the 1800s, before Bens passing.
I have wanted to get more, but the cost of shipping and the barrels just keeps creeping up. I noticed the other day that Adelaide Wine Barrels have started making their own bain marie style barrels.
I decided to grab 3 of them and have only filled up 2 so far, but I made a little video / review of my first impressions and main points of difference.

Keen to know if anyone else has used these - looking at the reviews they have sold a fair few already.


r/firewater 2d ago

is it possible to make beer with bread yeast

9 Upvotes

i cant find any alcohol yeast, and i only have bakers yeast on my hands right now, is it possible to make a low abv beer with it and freeze distill it until it has a high %??, also im doing it in my room without the houseowner knowing in a closet, the batch that i did today was :
-750ml of store grade orange juice
-250g sugar
-7 to 8 grams of bakers yeast
i mixed the sugar in, and swirled the yeast in and left space for the carbon dioxide to escape, now it has a kreusen layer what do you guys think


r/firewater 2d ago

Alcohol filter system

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14 Upvotes

So with infusing fruits or other things with a lot of moonshine flavors. It comes out cloudy or full with chicks from blackberries or mostly lemonade.

i figured I’d have to build my own filter system but i can’t find any good filter.

i figured id need a filter with 5/16th tube with ≈10micron filter but. everything decides to show me industrial filter systems or fuel filters.

here’s a picture of the pump I plan on using.

my idea is to take alcohol from 1 jar, filter it clear, then into another jar.

edit: it’s not distillation issue, I’m basically aging berrys or fruit and it’s dissolved fruits chunks that break off. I might go for the freezing process


r/firewater 3d ago

Whats grown in my neglected rum wash? (3 months)

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25 Upvotes

Banana rum, chunks are banana but idk about the shiny film and eapecially about that white stuff at the middle.

This was under an airlock and still had quite the carbonation, but finished 3-4 months ago. (Physically couldnt be here to distill it.)

The smell was striking, couldnt really give it any other name than horse feed molasses though, And by now i cant smell anything hahhah.

I know people have distilled nastier stuff here, but can people give a guess to whats grown? Is it fine to put through my new airstill? As in will it taint my still and leave the taste there hard or maybe something about the wild bacteria? (I am sorry i am not educated on infections at all yet, i know there are resources, but im not sure where to begin.)

Thanks in advance.


r/firewater 3d ago

Home Distilling Calculator

5 Upvotes

Hello,

Was at the fishing cabin planning my next rum batch and gin spirit run. Noticed there is not a very mobile friendly calculator available so tried vibe coding one. Thought that it might be useful for some. Credit to the calculator available at American Home Distillers Association. Copied some parameters from there.

Here is the link:

https://firewatercalculator.lovable.app/

Let me know what you think and if you find bugs or have suggestions what to add?

I added the option to save your own presets and also when intended spirit is set to gin, it opens a new box to add botanicals to your recipe.

Cheers


r/firewater 5d ago

Essential Oil Collection

8 Upvotes

Not sure if this is the right sub for this, but here goes

I purchased a Vevor style still (3 pot, main, thumper and condensor) and wondering if I'll be able to use it to collect catnip essential oil.

I looked at a more chemistry/scientific distiller, but thought this would work for my current needs and eventually allow me to try and make vodka and rum.

What I plan to do is build a gin basket to sit above the water level in the main pot and have steam pass through the catnip so I can collect both the pure essential oil and the catnip scented water.

I'm pretty sure I won't have great efficiency and my yields will be small, but if it works I'm a super small home business and would allow a cat-centric new product.

Is this doable or folly? (Please say doable so I can show the mrs that this isnt a new purely for my alcoholism hobby purchase)

Thanks


r/firewater 5d ago

Is there a chance to save it?

13 Upvotes

I left my Irish whiskey wash in the hot garage with the intention of running it later. I like to keep a wash ready for when I might have time to do a stripping run.

Anyway, I noticed one of my 5 gallon buckets must have warmed up enough to slightly pop the lid. I did keep water in the airlock. Not sure how it happened. I peaked inside, and it's been completely compromised by mold or fungus. I'm assuming it's shot and I've learned my lesson, but thought I would throw the question out to see if there's any options.


r/firewater 6d ago

Blow off tube high or low

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20 Upvotes

Second batch I've ever made!

My first fermentation was a cider that I turned into apple brandy, and it came out so well that I figured I'd jump right into a rum wash.

It's been pretty hot here, and fermentation took off fast. I'm already getting a faint banana aroma from the blow-off tube, which I'm assuming is from esters being produced by the yeast.

My main question: does the blow-off tube need to be higher than the demijohn? Right now fermentation is vigorous enough that CO₂ has no problem pushing through the water, but I'm wondering if that could become an issue later when things slow down.

You can also ignore the second bottle. I was experimenting with a double blow-off setup to reduce the smell and keep insects away. It didn't really work a d the insects do t seem interested anyway but I'm leaving it connected since the smaller air space above the water might help slow evaporation over the next week or two.

Anything you'd change, or does this setup look fine?

TL;DR: Second-ever ferment (rum wash). Smells faintly of banana already. Does a blow-off tube need to sit higher than the fermenter, or will CO₂ keep pushing through even after fermentation slows?


r/firewater 6d ago

Anyone have a good wheat vodka mash bill they can share for a 5 gallon run?

9 Upvotes

Neighbors friend who is Ukranian brought over a wheat vodka that was excellent. Just seeing if anyone has done this.


r/firewater 6d ago

Best apple pie recipe

11 Upvotes

I just have a couple runs under my belt and wanna be able to share some good stuff with my coworkers and friends. Are you able to share your best apple pie recipe?

Thanks.


r/firewater 6d ago

Legallity of distilling

12 Upvotes

Hi All,

In Australia and America (maybe other countries), it is not technically legal to do home distilling. How did you do it? If you got a commercial licence, how were you successful in obtaining it?


r/firewater 7d ago

Best simple and small home still?

9 Upvotes

Can I just use a cheap water distiller?


r/firewater 6d ago

Kveik Hornidal hook-up?

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6 Upvotes

Anybody in Brisbane Australia propagating some Kveik Hornidal in their fridge or have a not outrageous price hook up locally?


r/firewater 6d ago

Mashing question

7 Upvotes

I’ve seen a lot of video and there a thick cap during fermentation. I’ve never seen a cap on mine, I’m assuming it’s because I grind everything down to a fine powder. Can anyone confirm this or am I doing something wrong?

My mashing in process is getting the water to a rolling boil cut the heat add in the corn meal, stir periodically and add enzymes as temperature drops adjust ph to about 5.4 at 100°F

I use 2lbs of corn meal per gallon of water


r/firewater 7d ago

Distillation help

9 Upvotes

Distillation help

So I’ve got a distillation going but I forgot to add the bag of botanicals to the still. Can I finish collecting the hearts, clean the still, put the hearts back in with the botanicals and run the distillation again without changing the flavour profile?


r/firewater 7d ago

Help Running this?

8 Upvotes

Picked this up cheap, the bottom is about 150mm (6 inch) of copper wool packed pipe, then about 400mm of 4 pipe cooled reflux column and then the gin basket. Then the condenser.

Normally I'd skip the basket as I don't want to do Gin but I don't have a tri-clamp elbow.

Do you think it will be any detriment to leave it there and just use it for the elbow?