r/OpenDogTraining • u/Crafty-Cranberry-454 • 1d ago
Punishment to decrease and/or eliminate a behavior.
Hi, I’m diving more into the world of punishment and I’m a little overwhelmed and confused about a few things.
What types of behaviors can we punish, and at what stage do we add in punishment? Should we punish first and then teach, or teach then punish? Or is it situation dependent? As an example, say your dog is wanting to chase something, should you first train around the thing they want to chase, and show them how you want them to react, then once they have a strong understanding of what you want, add in punishment if they do the wrong behavior. But also I’m thinking, you could be punishing them for simply just not fully understanding what it is they are ment to do in the situation, or is that how you get forever stuck in just managing every situation and always thinking “well maybe this environment is just to hard for them” ?
If you use punishment first, for example, they start lunging or chasing something, you punish them, then show them what you want them to do and reward that, like walking calmly next to you. Is that effective? Will that result in that behavior decreasing and them learning to avoid punishment they need to do this behavior?
Or am i totally miss understanding 😭
I saw someone say that using something like an e collar to instantly punish the dog as it is doing something you don’t want, doesn’t work. They used an example of you being in class doing something wrong and the teacher yells at you, and apparently that alone isn’t enough to change the behavior, how ever if they then sent you out of the class and made you walk down the corridor in shame after, that would be punishment? So you need a marker before punishment? I hope that makes sense because it made no sense to me.
Overall what I’m wondering is, is punishment effective, and how should it be used to ensure it’s effective? I have a behavior my dog does that is undesirable to me, (similar to chasing prey, although I won’t go into all the details as it will be a long post) but I’m trying to figure out if punish (such as an ecollar) will decrease the behavior or eliminate it all together. I can keep everything positive by recalling him every time he does said behavior, but because the behavior is so desirable to him, its likely going to be a case of forever constantly managing him, because doing the behavior is way more rewarding than orienting back to me on his own. So will adding in punishment, then showing him what I want decrease this undesirable behavior?
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u/Narrow_Possession348 1d ago
I rarely, rarely ever "punish" a dog, but I do use corrections. I don't think the two terms are interchangeable. Sometimes punishment is in order and you don't need to teach the dog what *to do* instead. Sometimes, all you want is for the dog to NOT do a certain thing. Back in the day, I had a Ridgeback that started chasing a mare and newborn foal, both worth a LOT of money. I couldn't get her to stop. She had no intention of hurting them; it was just prey drive fun. My ex-husband wanted to shoot her, and it took everything I had to stop him. Both mom and foal were lathered and heaving sides and I had to put in an emergency vet call.
This was before the e-collars we know today. Back then, they were for hunting dogs, and they had two settings: knock the shit out of them, or REALLY knock the shit out of them. I rented one from a local hunting store. Following their advice, I let the dog wear the collar for several days (they actually gave me a dummy collar first) before actually using it. I took her to the pasture and tossed a rock at the horses. When they took off and my dog bolted after them, I gave her that level 2 button. It all but flipped her in the air. She came flying out of that pasture with her tail clamped between her legs at warp speed. It took about 3 hours before I could convince her to give it another go with the horses. She did it again, and I did it again. Problem solved. Forever. The dog never chased horses again nor did she chase deer, elk, moose, or anything else. She didn't need an "alternative behavior"; she simply needed to NOT chase our $50,000-$100,000 horses!
Likewise, I'm going to punish a dog if it growls at or threatens me (yeah, I don't gaf what the so-called experts say about that), tries to go after another dog, tries to steal food from the counter, take my food from the coffee table, etc. I don't use punishments often but the sole purpose is to make it clear to the dog that they better not try that again, not to teach them now to do anything.
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 1d ago
What you did with e collar was punishmenr! (Not a bad thing)
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u/Narrow_Possession348 1d ago
Yes, exactly - that's what I'm saying. The sole purpose was to punish the dog for doing a behavior that WAS going to get her killed and possibly injure a valuable horse, in a memorable way that would immediately and permanently stop the behavior.
And it worked beautifully. Did it hurt? Absolutely. Probably not as much as a hoof to her brain. Probably more so than a bullet through her brain. The dog's personality was not changed. She did not become fearful of horses, only respectful. There was no "fallout." Our "bond" was not affected. That harsh punishment, and yes, it was absolutely harsh and painful, literally saved her life. I used the same method, again renting the collar, for a German Shorthaired Pointer who would steal my good clothes off the line and drag them off. He knew to do it when no one was watching, and he ruined several pieces of my favorite clothing items. He learned that those clothes bit! Again, problem completely solved with no other negative outcomes - no fear of hanging clothes, no fallout, no damage to our relationship (he thought god did that to him, or the clothes).
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u/PhelanVelvel 1d ago
Dogs are way smarter than people give them credit for. Yes, you can absolutely punish something in the moment without prior teaching. That isn't always the right choice for the situation and your desired end goal, but sometimes it is. You have to look at the big picture, how that individual dog is likely to respond, and the behaviour you want to create. If you are consistent about correcting appropriately every time they do that chasing behaviour you mentioned, they will stop doing it. However, if you have a situation (such as with a hunting dog) where you want the dog to chase sometimes but other times stop while chasing, recall away, or even ignore the prey, all that requires teaching.
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u/Selective_Somewhere 1d ago
The best trainers are experienced and understand nuances. Certain behaviors should be taught first—sit, down, come, etc. And certain behaviors may be best trained with cause and effect. This is typically behavior type stuff.
But it depends. If my puppy lunges for my face in play, that’s going to likely be punished not trained, but for me that looks like grabbing the puppy before they make contact with a stern “Hey! No!” and with puppies after a scolding I wordlessly leave the room and shut the door afterward. I am experienced and my timing will be good. A less experienced person or a person with poor timing will probably get bitten first, put their hands on their face, go look in the mirror to see if they are bleeding, and then scold the puppy once the puppy has no clue what they are in trouble for. This is ineffective. In these cases my advice is to not be face to face with the puppy, so more management.
Good trainers take everything into consideration. Puppy temperament, human experience and timing. Bad trainers are black and white—you must do this or that here is a blueprint.
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 1d ago
You are going to get a ton of really bad advice on this subject, and it appears you already have. My best advice, rather than trying to break it all down, would be to subscribe to Jay Jack’s Patreon (Next Level Dogs) and listen and watch everything he has on there about punishment, starting with the punishment whiteboard lecture
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u/TheArcticFox-44 18h ago
Punishment to decrease and/or eliminate a behavior.
Hi, I’m diving more into the world of punishment and I’m a little overwhelmed and confused about a few things.
You are certainly not alone! Just a few decades ago, Pavlov discovered that dogs had the ability to learn. Prior to Pavlov, academics thought that only humans could learn...or feel. Other animals were simply instinctive, autonomic creatures.
The ability to learn emerged over 600 million years ago! (Sorry, Pavlov...you were a bit late.) The ability to learn was an enormously adaptive trait which is why, today, it's hard to find a species that cannot learn.
Instincts motivate behavior. Learning, however, enables a species to modify its behavior and more readily adapt to its environment.
Brains of 600 million years ago were remarkably simple..a neuron or two...barely a brain at all. The learning process was simple...and, believe it or not, it still is!
See: A Brief History of Intelligence: Evolution, AI, and the Five Breakthroughs That Made Our Brains by Max Bennett; 2023.
I wrote a partial answer to your initial post...then lost it...somehow on my gd phone I will try again tomorrow to address your post more specifically., OP.
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u/Crafty-Cranberry-454 1d ago
Here’s the part about the class room example-
This was in reply to a comment talking about a dog reacting, and being shocked instantly and that dog stopping the behavior.
“No, because that shock itself will never reduce long term behavior
Think of a cop pulling you over and not giving you a ticket. Or maybe a clearer example being: you act up in class, the teacher yells "HEY BEN BAD!!". Sure you stop and your blood runs cold for a second, but if thats all that ever happens then you are probably going to return to that behavior in the future unless you are particularly weak-spirited. In fact eventually you'll tune out the shouts and they wont even have that interrupting effect.
On the other hand if that shout were followed by a period of dead silence before the teacher said "You! Out in the hall. NOW" before you had to take the walk of shame out into the hall, get dressed down while you know all your classmates listened on, then after a few minutes take the walk of shame back into the quiet room. THAT is what sticks, not the yell that gave you pause but the punishment that followed.
Another example is like in old movies where theres a hysterical woman and Humphry Bogart gives her a slap (interruption), then says something like "now you listen here, if you dont quiet down now then we are all gonna get caught"(punishment). Sure the slap is aversive, but it isnt really what stops the behavior, it only causes the pause to "deliver the lesson" and allow it to sink in and be digested. Without the follow up, the slap might even heighten the hysteria after the initial surprise has worn off”
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u/Accomplished-Wish494 1d ago
Of course it does (can) reduce long term behavior.
Examples:
Bark collar. I’m not involved at all, there is no verbal correction. Dog barks- collar corrects. I can tell you they figure out REALLY fast to stop obnoxious barking.
I live on a farm. We have electric fences. They hit hard because…. Livestock. I’ve never seen a dog get zapped more than once. They aren’t traumatized, they get hit, yelp, run, and recover. But they do stay the heck away from the fence from then on.
The key is that the correction has to be big enough to make a very strong negative correlation between behavior and contraction. It’s the same theory behind anti-snake training. Nagging corrections are what don’t get you anywhere.
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u/Rude-Ad8175 1d ago
OP is quoting my comment so I'll clarify here as I do elsewhere in the discussion:
There is a difference between using punishment to create intentional avoidance or suspicious association like you do with an electric fence, snake or other environmental avoidance and what I am discussing here which is behavioral rehab of complex behaviors. Reactivity is not a behavior you want to create avoidance around
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u/HowDoyouadult42 1d ago
Iv literally never seen a bark collar work without causing other significant behavioral issues
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u/Accomplished-Wish494 1d ago
Just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. I HAVE seen it, but I’m talking about dogs who are nuisance barking, who are appropriately exercised, trained, etc. they are just the equivalent of the kid who can’t play without screaming
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u/PoloPatch47 1d ago
This is more just FF propaganda, e collar corrections will absolutely lower unwanted behaviour if you use them correctly. If you put an e collar on your dog, have no idea what you're doing, and just shock it, then you probably won't get any desired outcome.
This is why you need a conditioned "no" and the dog needs to understand the collar.
Saying that the shock just makes the lesson bigger isn't really accurate. If you don't correct a dog, and you just tell it "no", it's not going to care. It will learn that "no" doesn't mean anything, which is why it has to be paired with the correction, whether it's a leash pop or an e collar correction.
It's the same as the "yes" marker. If you just say yes without pairing it with a reward, the dog won't understand that it's doing something good. On the flip side, if you're rewarding without a marker, it might make your training a bit more ineffective because the dog might not understand WHY it's being rewarded.
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u/Rude-Ad8175 1d ago
You don't know what you are talking about
I made that comment, I am not force free at all, and in fact am talking about using the ecollar as a tool to stop behavior
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u/PoloPatch47 1d ago
Sorry for the misunderstanding, I'm used to FF people saying stupid shit about aversive tools.
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u/critical_audience_ 1d ago
As far as I know this kind of punishment has no desired effect on your dog. They don’t understand why you punish them and will just think you are a bit mean sometimes. Correction must be applied directly and fast.
You probably trained a version of “leave it”. A “don’t do that” works just the same.
My dog is sensitive but a maniac and I am uncomfortable using physical force on her. I still can correct her (I just need a harsh word which eventually became simple “nuh uh”) and I enforce my “nuh uh” in situations where I am in control. Let’s say she is on the leash and wants to chase squirrels, I react before she actually lunges or anything by observing her body language, I say “nuh uh” and if she shows any sign of disengaging (which in the beginning could be just the ears turning to me), I praise, use the attention to ask to turn to me, mark the correct behaviour and treat. You can also skip the “praise and ask for a behaviour” and directly mark and reward. Eventually this pattern will lead to “nuh uh” being a strong “don’t do that and turn your attention to me”.
In this version you should have already worked on a strong marker.
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u/Analyst-Effective 1d ago
Think of it this way. When a dog bites an electrical cord, or touches an electrical fans, then learn very quickly that they should not do it.
The same thing when the dog is doing something in the house.
You can tell the dog no, and hopefully that works.
And if it doesn't work, you can also use a e-collar or some other mechanism
If you want to teach your dog to avoid a snake, you bring the dog to the snake and when the dog shows interest, you use the e-collar to help them avoid it
All depends upon how you use the collar. If you use it like a quick jab, it works well
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u/Rude-Ad8175 1d ago
You cant punish a dog for what it doesnt know
Clarity and instruction precedes punishment. Once a dog knows how to do something, can do it, and is reasonably motivated to do it, then you can punish the decision not to. Without that framework you are just going to create avoidance and likely confusion
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 1d ago
You absolutely can. Punishment means do anything BUT that thing. Can you reinforce something a dog doesn’t know?
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u/Rude-Ad8175 1d ago
What is that thing? Stepping on the sidewalk? looking at that dog? Without clarity you just create generalized avoidance, and even worse you are probably going to have to move to abusive levels to do it. If you dont know this then that means you have almost certainly never worked with a truly tough dog or truly neurotic dog. The former will have no problem eating a level 100 on an ecollar and then doubling down, the later will turn into a confused mess even at a low level. Establishing clarity first in both cases changes everything.
And no, you cant reinforce a behavior that a dog doesnt know.
You can lure it but reinforcement can only occur after understanding, that is where "if A, then B" occurs. Before that the "reinforcement' that you think you are doing is just luring, which mentally is entirely different and not the mechanism that creates durability.
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 1d ago
This is precisely what marker words are for. I’m not saying that punishing should be the first step, but to say that it should never be the first step is unrealistic and saying “you can’t punish a dog for what it doesnt know” demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of what punishment is.
Have you ever used negative reinforcement to teach a behavior? There are more ways to teach a behavior than luring.
That thing is the behavior I am attempting to punish. So I mark that behavior like I would when I’m marking a behavior I’m trying to reinforce. The math of learning is the same for both reinforcement and punishment. Marking the behavior allows you to use less intensity and provided the dog clarity. There is no target behavior the dog needs to be taught before. Sniff the grass, walk on the sidewalk, sit, down, get in the heel position, do whatever you please but that
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u/Rude-Ad8175 1d ago
There are precious few behaviors where creating generalized avoidance will target the desired behavior, thus, it isnt punishment.
Negative reinforcement, is not "punishment"
If the dog does not know what "that thing" is then it is not getting punished for "that thing" it is just receiving seemingly randomized aversive. If you can mark a behavior then you have already established clarity. You seem to want to describe a dog that has had clarity established then talk as if it hasnt to justify your otherwise incorrect position.
You cant take a completely unsocialized dog, who has never worked with you, and never walked on a leash before, and start frying them when they try to run on the leash. They arent suddenly going to understand "I cant run on the leash" they are just going to stop all together, spazz out, or redirect on the leash. Your "no" marker is just some random noise you are making, the aversive stimulus is just random pain, no matter how many times you take that completely inexperienced dog and say "no" and zap him he isnt going to suddenly learn to loose leash walk. You have to put in the groundwork to introduce the word "no" and introduce the leash, and establish a dialogue between the two of you or else you are just going to get an abused dog that wont make it down the block
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 1d ago
Well goodness me at least we agree that negative reinforcement isn’t punishment. What are you talking about creating generalized avoidance for? You insinuated behaviors could only be taught via luring, that’s why I brought up negative reinforcement.
You’re also acting as if I said the first thing that people should do is punish, which is not the case. I was simply saying that saying there always has to be this exhaustive foundation building process before using punishment is not mandatory.
Punishment also does not equal force. Of course I would like to build rapport with a dog first. But I can build rapport and not teach a single obedience command and still punish the dog successfully. You don’t have to hammer a dog to punish them. You SHOULDNT hammer a dog to punish them. Punishment should result in experimentation of other behaviors. That absolutely can be done first.
Since you brought Dylan up, he could not build rapport with Paul before punishing the aggression. He literally couldn’t do anything with the dog before that. There was no foundation built beforehand and it’s going spectacularly
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u/Rude-Ad8175 1d ago
No, I never insinuated that behaviors could only be taught thru luring. Your reading comprehension is clearly on par with your dog training. What I did is describe the DIFFERENCE between luring and reinforcing, which apparently is beyond your pay grade
Again, with the reading comprehension. What "exhaustive foundation building" did I speak of? What I described is the bulk of what a basic evaluation about. If you aren't willing to even do that much then you have no business working with a dog.
Again, where did I say anything about teaching obedience or imply that punishment only equaled force?? You are making up your own delusional argument to make your stupid theory seem less stupid
I addressed this to you in another comment, and you are wrong, Dylan did not show up and start issuing punishments before building a rapport. You just obviously dont know what "building foundation" looks like and so you dont understand what you are looking at even when its filmed and played right in front of your own eyes
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 1d ago
Okay, everyone on this app treats punishment as an absolute resort and recommends all sorts of things before utilizing punishment. That’s my fault for assuming I apologize
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u/Rude-Ad8175 1d ago
Fair enough, you are right that this sub is 70% terrible advice and its by far the best on this app
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u/PhelanVelvel 1d ago
Dogs are capable of learning from the environment. I do this with dogs all the time. For example, stepping out into the street unattended. I correct that and they learn to have caution towards the street. A car doesn't teach you what to do instead before it runs you over.
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u/Rude-Ad8175 23h ago
Again, thats avoidance, thats the one thing that this method can teach. Ive addressed this multiple times above
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u/PhelanVelvel 23h ago
If you re-read your first comment, it should be pretty clear why I responded the way I did. You said "that just creates avoidance and likely confusion" as if creating avoidance is always a bad thing when that's often exactly what we want the dog to do. It's good for a dog to avoid a great many things in the environment which interacting with could prove harmful.
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u/Rude-Ad8175 18h ago
Go back and read OPs original post. Avoidance is not a solution to their problem. They are not asking how to keep their dog away from an open electrical box, or to stay away from snakes, or to not get up on the counter, ect.
Avoidance is a particular solution to a particular type of problem, its not something you want to impart on a dog to fix prey drive based issues, resource guarding, reactivity, ect. thats where "confusion" becomes a factor.
Everything you said is not relevant to OP's question, or my response to it
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u/PhelanVelvel 18h ago
You're completely backpeddling. You said:
"You cant punish a dog for what it doesnt know
Clarity and instruction precedes punishment. Once a dog knows how to do something, can do it, and is reasonably motivated to do it, then you can punish the decision not to. Without that framework you are just going to create avoidance and likely confusion"
Also, yes you can punish a dog for acting on prey drive. You can punish a dog for going after a cat, a sheep, etc. You can also punish a dog for reactivity. Dog runs at the fence acting like an asshat when someone walks by with a dog? Punish that response. Have you never done that before?
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u/Rude-Ad8175 17h ago
Bro, thats not backpedaling, my comments dont exist in a vacuum the way you may want them to, they are a response.
I'm not going to go in depth on the topic of "avoidance" with OP when it isnt relevant to what they are asking, all that matters is its thats not the training response that they would desire in this case.
No shit you can punish a dog for those behaviors, where did I imply you couldn't?? Learn to read before jumping into a conversation. What about "clarity precedes punishment" do you not understand? Is it the word "precedes"? or is it the basic concept that theres more to training a dog and behavioral modification than applying aversive?
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u/HowDoyouadult42 1d ago
You can punish it, but you shouldn’t
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 1d ago
Why?
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u/HowDoyouadult42 1d ago
What is the impact of punishing a dog for something it doesn’t know cognitively?
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 1d ago
The dog learns “don’t do that again.” They can do literally anything but the unwanted behavior. You don’t need to teach a target behavior because there is no target behavior. Do anything you want but that thing.
Do dogs on electric fences have to be taught a specific behavior before learning not to cross the electric fence?
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u/HowDoyouadult42 1d ago
Do you know how often dogs cross the fence line anyways and the can’t get back in and get hit by cars? Attacked by animals etc? Because we see it all the time it’s easily the least effective way to reach something long term
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 1d ago
If the dog is willing to blow through it it means that punishment was not successfully achieved. I agree that that type of punishment is usually not effective long term, which is why the typical advice on how to punish behaviors is usually bad. But it the behavior is not reduced, then punishment definitionally was not achieved
You still haven’t explained to me why punishment shouldn’t be used to punish a dog for “something it doesn’t know”
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u/Rude-Ad8175 1d ago
Thats correct in the sense that generalized avoidance is an effect of punishment, but it isn't the effect thats going to fix behavioral issues that are more complex than "stay away from that".
If you want the result to be a dog that can navigate a certain challenging situation on their own, in a productive and happy manner without continued guidance, then the dog is going to need to have a better understanding of whats being asked of it as a prerequisite
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 1d ago
It does not need an understanding as a prerequisite. A complete training program will address all of those things, but suggesting that all of those things need to be taught before using punishment is silly and often a waste of owners time and money
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u/Rude-Ad8175 1d ago
Not teaching those things ahead of time is a waste of the trainers time, the dogs time and is likely going to involve abuse
There was a video here the other week of Dylan Jones, a trainer many would consider heavy-handed and punishment heavy. In that video, even as a trainer with that reputation, he goes thru the exact measures I described thoroughly before ever introducing punishment.
What you are describing is exactly the type of balanced training that gives balanced trainers a bad reputation both in process and results. Generalized avoidance, is not training
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 1d ago
I can promise you that Dylan Jones did that in that video, and would tell you you’re an insane person for suggesting that it is what has to be done in every single situation with every single dog
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u/Rude-Ad8175 1d ago
You are a fucking idiot if you think he doesnt do that with every dog. He has nearly a dozen videos on his patreon, with every single one of his board and trains where he establishes communication before introducing punishment
If your bone-headed method worked then trainers would only need about 3 hours with a dog to solve behavioral issues
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 1d ago
What did he have to do with Paul first?
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u/Rude-Ad8175 1d ago
Are you kidding?
Did you see him just walk up and start issuing punishments during the evaluation?
Maybe you are very new to this and I am being to hard on you, but you are dangerously cocky in your ignorance. But what you are seeing, and obviously not recognizing is that Dylan, in that evaluation and in the first days of the board and train where he was wearing a bite suit is that he was establishing that exact clarity and communication that I have described numerous times now:
"Once a dog knows how to do something": Dog shows he has had normalized relations with people, isnt in drive 24/7
"can do it": Has successfully coexisted with Dylan on walks, in play, around the house
" is reasonably motivated to do it": Dog has hours, even days of interaction from Dylan that are fundamentally positive when conflict isnt involved
Assuming the inexperience you have on display here maybe you arent aware that there are dogs who cannot check all of these boxes without assistance or maybe you simply dont understand that the time Dylan is investing in these examples is literally helping the dog to check these boxes. Some require more, others less but even a simple dog like Paul, with a simple behavioral issue STILL has to first check these boxes before punishment is applied.
If things work the way you seem to think they do then Dylan would have just showed up to the Eval in a bite suit and started serving lightening every time Paul let into him. Thankfully he isnt an idiot and actually knows that that wouldnt work
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 1d ago
Okay I’m going to try and cool things down a bit because I think we agree on a lot and are misunderstanding one another. I never suggested that it should be the default plan. I was simply stating that there aren’t a whole list of fundamental training things that need to be done before turning to punishment. So many people treat punishment as an absolute last resort and I think that’s ridiculous. I also think that sometimes punishment is the best option to GET to reinforcement, as was said by jay jack in a video posted here not long ago.
I was not assuming the default dog we were talking about was a feral with no social skills and had never been outside. I was simply stating the a dog does not need foundational obedience and a whole bunch of “fundamentals” in order to use punishment.
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u/PoloPatch47 1d ago
You need to condition them to the tool you're using before you punish. Your punishment also has to be very direct and clear.
I usually teach punishment with a "leave it" command. I'll teach "leave it" with negative punishment and positive reinforcement so that the dog has a decent understanding of the command.
Then I will stop negatively punishing the dog, and I will positively punish instead with a leash pop.
Your timing is very important. If you're using an e collar, you need to deliver the correction the SECOND they make the wrong decision.
I'll give another example, if I'm teaching the dog to not jump onto my bed and I'm correcting the dog with an e collar, I watch for the second all of my dog's paws are on the bed, and then I correct and give my conditioned "no" marker.
An e collar can be harder for them to understand because it doesn't clearly come from you. You first need to use the negative reinforcement conditioning stages so that the dog understands it's from you. And then teaching a "no" marker with leash corrections is also important so that the dog understands that it's being punished.
It'll go like:
Teach leave it with -P and +R
Introduce +P and "no" marker with the leave it command (give "leave it" command, dog ignores, BEFORE dog takes food, but AFTER they made the decision to take it, say "no" and correct, repeat with different values of food/toys in different environments)
Dog should understand that "no" means that you're going to correct them
The second the dog decides to jump on the bed (in my example), mark "no" and correct, immediately chase the dog off the bed too if they don't do it themselves
The dog needs to understand that they're being punished by you, and they need to understand why they're being punished. Get a solid "no" marker that you taught with the leash, and make sure your timing is good.
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 1d ago
If you are “teaching punishment with a leave it” you are not teaching punishment. You are teaching leave it with negative reinforcement. If there is a desired behavior, it is not punishment
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u/PoloPatch47 1d ago
I may have phrased it wrong, I'm punishing the dog not leaving it.
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 1d ago
How?
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u/PoloPatch47 1d ago
With a correction after blowing off a "leave it" command.
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 1d ago
With the goal being that the dog “leaves it”?
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u/PoloPatch47 1d ago
How would you tell the difference between punishing the dog not listening, and negatively reinforcing the dog listening?
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 1d ago
If “leaving it” makes the pressure go away, it’s negative reinforcement of leave it
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u/PoloPatch47 1d ago
If it's a quick correction and not constant pressure?
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yes, the type of pressure does not matter. The only thing that matters is whether it resulted in more of a behavior or less of a behavior. “A” behavior, meaning a single behavior. That behavior in this example being “leave it” makes it a little more ambiguous. But the only correct answer in this puzzle was to “leave it”
This is why I don’t even teach a leave it. I don’t want to have to tell my dog to leave something every time they’re around it.
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u/Analyst-Effective 1d ago
You can make the e-color make them think it's from you, or from the object that you don't want them to be around.
I know for a fact, when I say the word come, and my dog doesn't instantaneously start moving towards me, it's electronic collar makes them hustle.
I don't know where they think it's coming from, but they know that I gave the command, and they know when that they got penalized for not following
Having said that, if you use a more gentle stimulation for a longer period of time, maybe they don't know what that's all about
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u/PoloPatch47 1d ago
That does actually make sense! I'm moreso meaning I've heard people say that you can create "superstitions" if you use the e collar incorrectly, and the dog associates the punishment with something it shouldn't.
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u/Analyst-Effective 1d ago
That's the same thing no matter what tool that you use.
When you call the dog to come, and it finally comes, and then you beat him because he didn't come, that destroys the process.
That's why the e-caller is best. It has the better timing if you're a decent trainer
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 1d ago
Yea tool conditioning is bogus most of the time and actually results in needing to use more intense aversive. If I’m using an aversive I want it to be aversive, I don’t want the dog conditioned to it that’s absurd
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u/Analyst-Effective 1d ago
Exactly.
The dog should know he's getting the adversive because of what he is doing, it doesn't matter if he knows where it's from or not
If I call my dog to come, and it deliberately ignores me, I don't mind flipping it over backwards with the collar.
Having said that usually a medium size Nick is all you need
However, if your dog is running towards the freeway, and you have already called it many times and it doesn't come, you probably want it full strength
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 1d ago
I always want dogs to know exactly how to AVOID the aversive. That’s the whole point so conditioning doesn’t really make sense
People also act like the ecollar is this mysterious tool and do all this weird shit with it that no normal person would do with a leash and a collar, but it’s literally just a virtual leash
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u/Mojojojo3030 1d ago
Yes punishment works. No it doesn’t always work. Like any tool in the tool box.
Yes you can punish without teaching an alternative behavior, and yes you can punish after teaching, and you can actually teach through punishment. Successful examples in order with my guy: punishing chasing squirrels without providing alternatives; punishing leaving heel; and punishing leaving a 20ft radius after giving his “stay close” command to teach him to stay within 20ft.
Which one is best for a given situation? It depends.