r/DebateReligion 2d ago

Meta Meta-Thread 07/20

1 Upvotes

This is a weekly thread for feedback on the new rules and general state of the sub.

What are your thoughts? How are we doing? What's working? What isn't?

Let us know.

And a friendly reminder to report bad content.

If you see something, say something.

This thread is posted every Monday. You may also be interested in our weekly Simple Questions thread (posted every Wednesday) or General Discussion thread (posted every Friday).


r/DebateReligion 14h ago

Simple Questions 07/22

1 Upvotes

Have you ever wondered what Christians believe about the Trinity? Are you curious about Judaism and the Talmud but don't know who to ask? Everything from the Cosmological argument to the Koran can be asked here.

This is not a debate thread. You can discuss answers or questions but debate is not the goal. Ask a question, get an answer, and discuss that answer. That is all.

The goal is to increase our collective knowledge and help those seeking answers but not debate. If you want to debate; Start a new thread.

The subreddit rules are still in effect.

This thread is posted every Wednesday. You may also be interested in our weekly Meta-Thread (posted every Monday) or General Discussion thread (posted every Friday).


r/DebateReligion 6h ago

Other God is the most evil creature in the universe.

41 Upvotes

A being who one day just got bored and thought I will create billions and billions of lives and torture them, and at the end kill them just for absolutely no F*ing reason other than his amusement. People who believe in God and his goodness will at least agree with me that most of the humans will go to hell, and in hell humans will be burned and tortured for eternity. And God knows this very well even before he created this universe. He knew that most of his creations would end up in hell, and that's what he wanted, right? That's why he went with the creation despite knowing that most of them would fail and he would have to torture them for eternity.

It is evident that he likes torturing.

Now tell me, isn't God the most evil being in the universe?


r/DebateReligion 1h ago

Classical Theism God created humans and then tortured them for eternity.

Upvotes

Bad people are bad because god made them bad. The argument that "he is testing them" is false because he already knows everything that will happen, it wouldn't make sense that he is "giving" them a chance when he knows exactly how they will end up in hell and be tortured for eternity. It would be the same as me throwing a dog into a volcano. I know the outcome.


r/DebateReligion 1h ago

Christianity My issue with God and animal suffering

Upvotes

Look, I'd identify as a guy drifting between agnosticism and Christianity, but recently I've been troubled by an idea that I just can't shake.

I love wildlife, nature, and evolutionary biology. I frequently watch documentaries, YouTube videos, and spend time researching topics in this area. One day, I was watching a documentary in which an impala was brutally disembowelled alive by hyenas. To the average person, it's just nature being nature, but as someone raised to believe that God loves His creation and that suffering entered the world because of the Fall and sin, this doesn't make sense to me.

This kind of animal suffering has been happening throughout evolutionary history, long before the supposed Fall of Man. It made me wonder: why would an all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-loving God create a reality in which this kind of suffering is simply a necessary requirement for life? It's a brutal eat-or-be-eaten system where animals, which don't even possess the cognitive ability to understand morality, are constantly subjected to suffering through predation, famine, disease, and freak accidents in the wild.

Surely, if God were all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful, He could create a system that doesn't require the suffering of what I believe are innocent beings just for it to function.

I've been trying to reconcile this in a few ways. Maybe God doesn't view animal suffering in the same way that we do. Maybe animals are compensated with an eternity in a heaven-like paradise. Maybe God is communicating something to humanity through this suffering. Maybe its logically impossible for a world without these conditions to exist. Or perhaps there's a much deeper purpose or hidden meaning that my human mind simply isn't capable of comprehending something only God can truly understand.

I would really appreciate any opinions, this is not an attack on Christianity, just a genuine question, please don't attack me. Im also guesssing this same question could be asked to other religions whose God's have similar descriptions?

Edit:I've noticed that some replies focus on rejecting the evolutionary timeline. That's a perfectly valid position to hold, but it's not the question I'm asking. My question is conditional: if evolution is true and animals have been suffering for millions of years before humans, how do Christians reconcile that with an all-loving, all-powerful, and all-knowing God? I'm interested in answers that work within that assumption.


r/DebateReligion 4h ago

Christianity If Jesus is YHWH of the Old Testament. Then by modern standards he deserved death.

6 Upvotes

Per the doctrine of the Trinity Jesus is YHWH, the god of the Old Testament. That means every command, action, behavior and law were all issued by the same entity.

When we read the Old Testament we find out that YHWH/Jesus commanded and condoned almost every major deed we classify today as severe crimes worthy of the death for their perpetrator.

He's guilty of:

Genocide

​Deuteronomy 20:16–17: "However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you."

​1 Samuel 15:3: "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys."

​Joshua 6:21: "They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys."

War Crimes, human and child trafficking:

Numbers 31:17–18: "Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."

Deuteronomy 20:10–15: "When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subjected to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and engage you in battle... put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves."

Chattel Slavery & Human Property:

Leviticus 25:44–46: "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life..."

Exodus 21:20–21: Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies of a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave survives a day or two, since the slave is their property."

Mutilation & Collective Punishment:

Deuteronomy 25:11–12: "If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity."

Joshua 7:24–25: Then Joshua, together with all Israel, took Achan son of Zerah, the silver, the robe, the gold bar, his sons and daughters, his cattle, donkeys and sheep, his tent and all that he had... Then all Israel stoned him, and after they had stoned the rest, they burned them."

Capital Crimes for religious freedom & tyrannical theocracy and oppression of minorities:

Deuteronomy 13:6–10: "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, 'Let us go and worship other gods'... You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone them to death..."

Leviticus 20:13: If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Numbers 15:32–36: "While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day... Then the Lord said to Moses, 'The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.' So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the Lord commanded Moses."

Deuteronomy 21:18–21: "If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him... then all the men of his town are to stone him to death."


r/DebateReligion 11h ago

Classical Theism God could never know if they are the greatest God.

27 Upvotes

Even if a being created our universe, was omnipotent within it, and knew everything there is to know about it, how could it ever know that it's the absolute highest reality?

What's stopping there from being a far greater god outside its existence, one that simply chooses never to reveal itself?

The "lower" god would have no way to distinguish between:

truly being the ultimate god, and

merely being the highest god it has access to.

Wouldn't that make certainty of being the absolute God logically impossible?


r/DebateReligion 8h ago

Other Gnosticism makes more sense than most religions.

13 Upvotes

Im an atheist that dabbles into the occult and left hand path philosophy. I don’t currently believe in anything supernatural, but I’m more agnostic towards certain spiritual ideas than others.

I don’t see any evidence that there’s a creator of this world, but I sympathize with Gnostics. If I lived in more ancient times without the scientific knowledge available to us today, then I definitely would have subscribed to gnostic thought. I don’t see how anyone can observe this world for more than 5 minutes without concluding a creator of it would have to be either evil or completely incompetent. The entire system is built on suffering, devour to survive. There’s nothing but confusion among mainstream religions, every one of them saying contradictory things to the other with threats of eternal torture for getting it wrong.

It’s not a complete impossibility that this world has a creator in my mind, but there’s no way I could ever see this creator as good. If something made this reality, they designed it to be a prison and a fear factory.


r/DebateReligion 6h ago

Islam When Religious Arguments Contradict religion.

10 Upvotes

As a ex Muslim, I find it really funny when religious people bring up arguments like rape, pedophilia, and having multiple partners as arguments against same-sex marriage, when in reality all three were once part of their religion. In today's civilized world, they just deny them.

I don't know much about Judaism and Christianity, but in Islam, sexual slavery and marital rape are legalized. Nowadays, Muslims say people in the past misunderstood Islam, blah blah.

And I have seen religious people who compare homosexuality with rape, pedophilia, etc. in one debate, and in another debate they justify sexual slavery, marital rape, and pedophilia. For example, Daniel Haqiqatjou.

In Islam, a man can have up to four wives and as many sex slaves as he wants.

I find it even more interesting that sometimes Muslims use natural law theory as an argument against same-sex marriage, while in Islam oral sex is considered permissible, including a wife or a female slave masturbating her husband or master, or rubbing her genitals against his body. In Shia Islam, anal sex is even allowed with the wife's consent. Islam also allows a master to avoid ejaculating in his female slave's vagina.

It seems ironic that Islam itself does not consistently follow natural law theory, yet some Muslims use it as an argument against same-sex marriage.


r/DebateReligion 8h ago

Abrahamic Islam's rules make it less likely that God can filter out bad actors from good ones - unless the goal is explicitly to assess obedience over purity

8 Upvotes

I'm still exploring all religions - including Islam - so I request comments be respectful and enlightening.

One thing that surprises me is the sheer number of rules in Islam - if the goal is to be a good person under free will and be judged for it, doesn't following a specific code dull the "human" in you from doing anything? How can you exert free will and risk sinning if a majority of your life is written for you and you obey out of fear of Hell?

I started reading about the religion with a lot of respect - well-written, strong ethical principles in a lot of the Quran, explosive growth for its time, a fascinating history.

What baffles me is how many things are restricted. It's one thing to say "be a good person and treat others well and you'll be judged" - that leaves room to error, learn, repent, grow. But when you follow a ruleset like this what's left to judge:

  • no images at home (family, pets, religious figures, media characters)
    • not sure how Muslims are allowed to go on Reddit or YouTube? Profile avatars and feed images are already against strong Hadith)
  • specific durations and timings for praying
  • specific durations and timings for fasting
  • no handshakes with women
  • no helping your elderly neighbor in her home if she lives alone
  • no dating (which really is just talking) without visibility/chaperones
  • no to most music
  • no white lie jokes
  • grow beard / wear Hijab
  • no savings accounts/loans (including ones that are marketed Islamic but clearly just interest rates with extrapolated math to replace it with "fees" or co-ownership)
  • no dog companionship
  • restrictions on when to use/not use right and left hands
  • dietary restrictions
  • [probably more I forgot - I'm not yet an expert)

That leaves me with two theories:

  1. Obedience to God, not justice/purity, is the true measure of being worthy for Heaven (something I can't yet grasp given my western upbringing but suppose I am open to)
  2. God specifically wants those who worship Him for a reason (better company, future endeavors, etc - I have no idea)

r/DebateReligion 1d ago

Other There are no non-religious arguments that prove homosexuality is morally wrong. Change my view.

64 Upvotes

My position is that I have yet to find a convincing non-religious argument showing that homosexuality is morally wrong. I believe it’s not wrong in any way shape or form and it’s no different then heterosexuality and the only way people “prove” it’s wrong is just personal or religious beliefs

I’m open to changing my mind if someone can provide a logically consistent, evidence-based argument that does not rely on the Bible, God, or any other religious authority.

Please keep the discussion civil. I’m interested in hearing any arguments and discussing their reasoning.
Dm me if you don’t want to comment

This is a repost as my last post was taken down because I didn’t have a clear thesis so I rewrote my post


r/DebateReligion 12h ago

Other Being omniscient and having a moral standard cannot coexist

3 Upvotes

I'm agnostic, and one of the primary reasons is this. Almost all religions believe that God has came up with a set of rules, or moral standards to follow. My point is this. Can you even begin to imagine the notion of morality to an omniscient being? Think about the idea of omniscient. Imagine being able to experience every single moment in time, with complete control of each of those moments, REALLY think about the notion of complete control. Why come up with verbal rules to guide people, when you can have made it always the case. The argument tends to be because he chooses to give us free will, but my question is, do you think the concept of free will even exists to an omniscient being? He could have made you believe that you were a monkey with 3 legs and that you would have chosen this based of your OWN "free will". Anyways I know this is a little hard to wrap your head around, I'm also having a hard time trying to convey my message better but it kinda boils down to the classic debate of God is either all powerful or all good. I'm just beginning to seriously explore religion so I am genuinely interested to hear takes on this

Edit:
Sorry if I misuse terms or my wording is ambiguous or imprecise, I'll try my best to clarify in the comments

In this case I am referring to a tri omni god, just trying to challenge mainstream beliefs about god


r/DebateReligion 20h ago

Other I can concede there may be a creator to the universe but this does not mean religion or 'God' is true.

11 Upvotes

There are many arguments for the existence of god which seem fairly logical, for example the teleological argument (there must be a deliberate designer because the universe is so intricate) or the cosmological argument (everything has a cause therefore the universe must have a cause). Obviously there are many issues with these arguments and I'm not saying that I buy into them.

However, I would be far more prepared to accept the existence of a creator, rather than the existence of a God, especially the Abrahamic God. I see no way for there to be a God who is all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful (inconsistent triad argument). Furthermore, I fully believe that all religion is man made.

Looking at many religious texts and practices, you can see how they have been strongly influenced by the times which the religion was founded in or the geography.

For example, in the Torah and the Quran, eating pork is forbidden. In the Middle East where the climate is very hot, pork spoils quicker than other kinds of animal meat without refrigeration, therefore much more susceptible to spoil. Pigs also carried very dangerous parasites and disease which can cause death without modern medicine.

Or taking a non-Abrahamic religion like Hinduism (although many people will fairly argue this isn't technically a religion). People throw grains or ghee (purified butter) into fire during prayer. It actually works as an air purifier and kills air-borne pathogens which in our modern life don't need anymore but still persists because it is a religious practice.

If religion is truly transcendent and some God has told us how to live our lives, how come it is so influenced by time and geography?

There may very well be a creator of the universe, it's impossible to prove or disprove, however with religion there appears to be clear evidence of how it's manmade.

Change my mind :)


r/DebateReligion 22h ago

Abrahamic Discussions over free will are frustrating because theistic models that insist on God's foresight don't provide a consistent framework for what free will ISN'T.

16 Upvotes

I'm not sure I've ever understood what exactly a universe without free-will would even look like to theists.

For instance, if I ask why God didn't create people who he knew would obey him, I'm told that violates free will. But when I ask the theist if God knew that they, the individual, would obey him, they say "yes." See the problem? If you're not a robot, neither are my hypothetical people.

Here's another one:

If I ask a believer why God doesn't stop a certain specific, evil (a rape, a murder), I'm told "that would violate free will". Ok, but when I ask if physically stopping a rape or a murder violates free will, I'm told "no". Once again, same problem. If you can beat a rapist into submission, so can God.

Or how about this:

If I claim that God doesn't let me fly or teleport, I'm told that doesn't constitute a violation of free will because those are just physical impossibilities. If I ask why God didn't make murder and rape physical impossibilities, I'm told that would violate free will. It just. keeps. going.

Or (one more)

If I ask a believer: If I'm given a menu with two options, Fish Sandwich or Chicken Sandwich, do I have free will? The answer, initially, is usually yes. But three or four questions down the line, it's explained to me that dichotomies must be "morally significant," and it doesn't count as a free-will decision if you're choosing between two "kinda" (it's always ambiguous) good things, even if you have a preference. (The Poop Sandwich, sadly, must be ordered)

I'm not convinced theism has a coherent view of what "forcing" a decision even means, since a man at gunpoint can still ostensibly choose to take the bullet and die.


r/DebateReligion 9h ago

Christianity The moral of God

0 Upvotes

I had been having fun browsing some forums after watching a series that I really like. I am not going to name the series, it is not important.

What caught my attention was that people in the comments were disappointed that certain characters had not died. Some characters who were not necessarily villains, quite the opposite, who were innocent characters in the story. For other characters who had died, they would have wanted something more cruel. And they were not saying it with a sadistic tone. They were genuinely disappointed, and so was I a little, because it would have made the story much more interesting.

Normally, I would not have reacted to comments like that, but I was in a state of observation. I put myself in the position of a character from the series. I thought that if they saw that, they would think that we, the people watching the series, were monsters for wanting such scenarios.

And I understood that, first, the reason why we want such scenarios is because we are beings with a higher consciousness. We are completely aware of their plane of existence. So we know that it is a simulation. Because of that, our relationship to their suffering is not the same as our relationship to our own suffering, between human beings on this plane of existence.

I think that with God, it is the same thing. Given that, whether scientifically, philosophically or religiously, He is supposed to be a being with a higher consciousness than another, and to be fully aware of our physical plane, His morality must be similar. His relationship to us must be similar to our relationship to series.

That would explain the existence of evil. Nobody wants to watch a film without a villain, without drama. It simply has no interest. That is just how it is. And our plane of existence is His kind of film.

What do you think?


r/DebateReligion 1d ago

Atheism There Isn’t any real proof for christianity.

20 Upvotes

Is there any actual real rock solid proof that supports christianity? The bible Isn’t proof since it’s a old book written before we even knew that the earth was round and contains multiple false facts. And saying that people have seen supernatrual stuff doesn’t make sense either since it’s obviously hallucinations.


r/DebateReligion 18h ago

Abrahamic Religions are geopolitical technological adaptations

4 Upvotes

It is said that what became Judaism started out as the adoption as patron of a warrior god thought to control weather by a non-monotheistic group called Yahwists, and there is some support for this in the Old Testament, in particular the Pentateuch. See Exodus 19:9, 16-19; Deuteronomy 33:1-2; Exodus 15:1-18; Deuteronomy 4:11–12, 33, 36; Deuteronomy 5:22–26; Exodus 9:13-35; Numbers 11:25, 12:5, 14:10-14.

But cults, like cultures, adapt. When elite elements of Israelite society were displaced to Babylon, the Old Testament editors turned to the scriptures in search of a placeless god with whom they had a pact. See Albertz, R., Israel in Exile (2003) at 246 (“Stripped of the organizational structure of the state, Israel was largely reduced to the family as a basis for its common life.”), 268 (discussing exilic doctrinal revisions presenting YHWH as “הָאֵ֣ל” [hā-’êl], i.e., “the [only] God” to support the notion that “God’s activity cannot be limited” since “God is bound not to a geographical location but to a human group.”), 294-95 (“To prevent the destruction of the temple from affecting Yahweh himself, the Deuteronomists made every effort to spiritualize the earlier highly concrete notions of Yahweh’s cultic presence in the temple. No longer did Yahweh dwell on Mount Zion (Pss 46:5 [4]; 76:3 [2]; 84:2 [1]; 132:7; 1 Kgs 8:12), as the exponents of ancient Zion theology asserted; neither did he cause his name to dwell there (Deut 12:11; 14:23; 16:2, 6, 11; 26:2), as the Deuteronomic theologians taught. Instead, he actually dwelt in heaven (1 Kgs 8:27). In the view of the Deuteronomistic historians, the temple was no longer built for Yahweh himself but ‘for his name’ . . . In other words, he was not present there but was merely accessible in a special way through prayer (1 Kgs 8:29–30).”).

By the time of Jeremiah, who is said to have died in around 570 BC, the cult that had initially focused on animal sacrifices performed at a specific temple had evolved to one focused on obedience in accordance with timeless divine scripture. See Carroll, R. P., Jeremiah: A Commentary (1986), at 80 (“As the bearer of the word Jeremiah represents one development of a theologized surrogate for human institutions in the Persian period and reflects a movement of considerable importance in the evolution of Judaean religion in the direction of early Judaism.”), 216 (“It is part of the Deuteronomistic desacralization of the community’s life in order to concentrate its attention on the divine word – an example of the theology of the word rewriting the nation’s history. Obedience, not sacrifice, was the original command, and by that standard the nation’s history has been one of complete and continual rebellion against Yahweh. Hence its destruction is warranted.”). The story of Jeremiah is interesting for our purposes because when he is supposedly told by YHWH that he had been preselected as a prophet, Jeremiah protested that he could not speak as a prophet in light of his youth. See Jeremiah 1:6. Despite this, YHWH insists. See Jeremiah 1:7-10 (“But the Lord said to me, ‘Do not say, I am too young. You must go to everyone I send you to and say whatever I command you. Do not be afraid of them, for I am with you and will rescue you,’ declares the Lord. Then the Lord reached out his hand and touched my mouth and said to me, ‘I have put my words in your mouth. See, today I appoint you over nations and kingdoms to uproot and tear down, to destroy and overthrow, to build and to plant.'”). We will not the parallels in the Qur’an later.

Whereas the exilic revisions answer the question of how to receive YHWH’s favor without physical proximity to his temple, Christianity came to answer the question of how to receive it without privity in the pact. Before there was anything written that would make its way into the New Testament, there came to be an apocalyptic and messianic movement whose adherents considered themselves Jewish followers of Jesus. See Fredriksen, P., From Jesus to Christ (2000), at 135 (“[T]he original community of Jesus’ followers, like Jesus himself, had stood recognizably within the bounds of traditional Judaism and traditional apocalyptic expectation . . . Soon the message of Jesus and the coming Kingdom spread to the synagogue communities of the Diaspora.”), 142 (“So far I have reconstructed a messianic movement whose message, despite one glaring oddity—its messiah had died and been raised—essentially recapitulated the traditional hopes and commitments of Jewish restoration theology. Its first apostles, themselves Jews, shortly after the resurrection took this message of the impending redemption of Israel to Israel. They traveled via the network of synagogue communities spreading throughout the Jewish homeland to the Diaspora, fervently preaching the coming of the Kingdom and their messiah’s return.”).

Of the writings that many years later made their way into the New Testament biblical canons, the earliest were letters authored by a person who admits to not being an eyewitness, namely, Paul. See Brown, R., An Introduction to the New Testament, abridg. (2016), at 3 (“It is no accident, then, that letters were the first Christian literature of which we know. Thus in the 50s of the first century Paul produced the earliest surviving Christian documents: I Thess, Gal, Phil, Phlm, I and II Cor, and Rom.”), 163 (“As the oldest preserved Christian writing, this document has a special significance even outside the Pauline corpus. Within the corpus I Thess has at times been neglected because it does not treat the great Pauline theme of justification by faith apart from the works of the Law.”), 152 (“His letters do not suggest that he had seen Jesus during the public ministry or at the crucifixion, and so implicitly cast doubt on his continuous presence in Jerusalem in the years AD 26–30/33.”), 257-58 (“Perhaps above all, Paul denied receiving his gospel from any other human being—God revealed the Son to him (Gal 1:11–12)…”); Murphy-O’Connor, J., Paul: A Critical Life (1996), at 42 (“The name Saul, however, is known to us only through Luke, whose credibility unfortunately cannot be taken for granted, because his usage smacks of artificiality.”).

As best can be inferred, Paul was born around 6 B.C. as a Roman citizen, was educated in Greek, and may have studied Judaism in Jerusalem, where he became “extremely zealous” and “completely dedicated to, and totally involved in,” the persecution of the early Jesus movement. (Murphy-O’Connor, at 8, 41, 48-49, 60-69). However, much of what is claimed about Paul biographically comes from the author of Luke-Acts, whose narration is untrustworthy. See Fredriksen, at 55 (“Unfortunately, what little biographical information Paul does give us seems to fatally compromise, if not contradict, what we have from Luke. Paul himself never states that he studied in Jerusalem under Gamaliel or anyone else (as we would expect he would when he boasts of being a ‘Hebrew of Hebrews’; Phil 3:4–6); nor that he participated in any way in persecutions there… If Acts did not exist and all we had were Paul’s letters, we would have no reason to think of him as other than a Jew of the Diaspora whose language was Greek, whose original arena of activity was Damascus…”); Murphy-O’Connor, at 66 (“Once it is noticed that the strongest statements concerning Paul’s pre-Christian activity always occur as introductions to narratives of his conversion, it becomes obvious that it was in Luke’s artistic interest to exaggerate certain negative traits of Paul the persecutor in order to set in greater relief the miracle of his conversion and the success of his apostolate.”); Brown, Intro, at 151 (“No doubt, Acts has offered a theological interpretation of Paul, adapting his role to fit an overall view of the spread of Christianity.”).

Despite never meeting Jesus in person, Paul professed that he encountered him in a revelation. Written some 20 years after Jesus’s death, Paul’s letter to the churches of Galatia asserts that God selected him (Paul) for a revelation of his (God’s) son (Gal. 1:16). Following this: “Paul now knew with the inescapable conviction of direct experience that the Jesus who had been crucified under Pontius Pilate was alive. The resurrection which he had contemptuously dismissed was a fact, as undeniable as his own reality. He knew that Jesus now existed on another plane.” (Murphy-O’Connor, at 78). Initially, Paul may have taught that, in order to attain salvation, a convert would need to follow Jewish law. See Campbell, D. A., “Galatians 5.11: Evidence of an Early Law-observant Mission by Paul?“, in New Testament Studies 57(3) (July 2011), at 347 (“Paul did spend part of his apostolic career proclaiming a gospel that included a commitment to circumcision, which is to say that he did not always relax this expectation for male converts to his movement from paganism.”). Or, it could be that his idea all along was that Jewish law had been rendered obsolete by Jesus’s death. See Collman, R.D., The Apostle to the Foreskin: Circumcision in the Letters of Paul (2023), at 105 (“To be sure, Paul’s thought likely developed—as is expected with any individual— but that he drastically altered his core message to gentiles seems unlikely.”). Either way, by the end of his ministry, it was Paul’s emphatic claim that Jesus’s death admitted non-Jews to the covenant notwithstanding non-adherence to Mosaic law. See Sanders, E. P., Paul, the Law, and the Jewish People (1983), at 207-08 (“Paul’s thought was largely Jewish, and his work as apostle to the Gentiles is to be understood within the framework of Jewish eschatological speculation, as Rom. 15:16 makes clear. Paul interpreted his task of bringing the Gentiles into the people of God in such a way, however, that the church, in both his understanding and practice, became in effect a third entity – although he seems not to have perceived that his gospel and his missionary activity imply a break with Judaism. There are, nevertheless, two points at which the break is clearly perceptible. One is the traditional Jewish doctrine of election, which Paul denies. He appeals, to be sure, to God’s covenant with Abraham, and thus his language is often appropriate to understanding the church as ‘true Israel.’ But his argument that the covenant ‘skips’ from Abraham to Christ, and now includes those in Christ, but not Jews by descent, is in fact a flat denial of the election of Israel. The second point at which the break is especially clear is his insistence that it is through faith in Christ, not by accepting the law, that one enters the people of God. Thus he denies two pillars common to all forms of Judaism: the election of Israel and faithfulness to the Mosaic law.”).

Paul’s activities proved that among the non-Jewish inhabitants of the Roman Empire there was hunger for Israelite monotheism, so long as it could be adapted to their lifestyle. See Meeks, W., The First Urban Christians, 2d ed. (2003), at 36 (“Their strict monotheism, their ‘imageless’ worship, the strong cohesion of their communities won admiration among many of their pagan neighbors, leading some to become outright proselytes, others to become sympathizers or even formal adherents to the synagogue.”), 81 (“Paul explicitly and emphatically rejected the ritual of circumcision and the other observances that distinguished Jew from gentile, although the controversy in Galatia shows that this was by no means a self-evident step.”), 91 (“[T]here was an old and expanding tradition of intellectual monotheism in Hellenistic culture, and the series of prepositional phrases appended to ‘one God, the Father,’ and ‘one Lord, Jesus Christ’ in Paul’s formulalike statement can be found in almost identical form in writings of the Roman Stoics and others.”), 92 (“Whereas the Jewish communities in the diaspora cities welcomed both proselytes and ‘god-fearers’ who were not yet ready to make the full commitment signified by circumcision, Paul and the other urban missionaries of the new sect took a much more radical approach toward the non-Jews. They proclaimed in the death and resurrection of Messiah Jesus the beginning of a new age, in which Jew and gentile were to be joined together without distinction in the people of God. The ritual markers that protected the identity of the Jews in pagan cities— particularly circumcision, kashrut, sabbath observance—were now abandoned (though not without dissent).”).

It is only after Paul’s activities prove the viability of a Judaism for non-Jews that we get the first of the Gospels, Mark. Mark is, compared to the later gospels of Matthew and Luke, less mythological with respect to Jesus’s origin. Mark, for example, does not make the claim that Mary and Joseph traveled to Bethlehem pursuant to a Roman decree requiring householders to be counted in their ancestral town, nor does it claim that Jesus was born of a virgin. See Brown, R. E., The Birth of the Messiah (1993), at 27 (“The oldest example, the Gospel of Mark… terminates with the angelic proclamation of the resurrection at the empty tomb (16:1-8). Mark tells the reader nothing about Jesus’ birth or youth, not even the name of his father (Joseph).”), 35 (“The Lucan account alone depicts the following: the story of Elizabeth, Zechariah, and the birth of JBap [John the Baptist]; the census which brings Joseph to Bethlehem; the acclamation of Jesus by the shepherds…”). Paul, likewise, did not assert that Jesus was born of a virgin on the two occasions he considered it worthwhile to address his birth at all. See Galatians 4:4-5 (“But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.”); Romans 1:3 (“the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh”).

Translations, too, adapt. In Mark 7 Jesus defended his apostles who ate with unwashed hands on grounds that food enters the stomach and not the heart, and is evacuated, purging all impurity. It is a single Greek word with varying transcription that has been turned in translation into a declaration that Jewish dietary laws were abrogated by Jesus along the lines of: “(In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.).” The Greek word is either καθαρίζων or καθαρίζον and by Jesus’s time pronounced identically or at least very similarly. If the penultimate letter is correctly ω, then the word is a masculine active participle, and if ο is correct, then the participle is neuter. The oldest manuscripts render the participle as masculine, and the neuter is used in Byzantine manuscripts. Hence the KJV, inheriting the neuter, has: “it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats,” the participle referring to the neuter noun πᾶν (pan, i.e., “everything” or “whatsoever thing from without” which “entereth . . . and goeth out into the draught.”). By contrast, and relying on the assumption that the participle is properly masculine, the NIV and RSV have the purifying agent referring to the accusative masculine singular “Jesus”, for the proposition that the same “he” who “says” that whatsoever enters from the outside ends up in the sewer having passed through the stomach without touching the heart–that “he”, i.e., Jesus–is the active participle that purifies all food in Mark 7:19. The translation having Mark’s narrator say "Jesus declared all foods clean” is a new interpretation innovated, for the English-speaking world at least, in 1881 at the earliest. It is in 1881 that the English Revised Version renders the word: “This he said, making all meats clean.” Then, in 1946, the Revised Standard Version comes out with: “(Thus he declared all foods clean.)”, and the NIV in 1978 gave a similar rendition. The RSV and NIV insert a subject not present or obvious in the original (“Jesus”) and an adjudicative verb absent in the original (“declared”). Even if we assume the participle is masculine, we must acknowledge that Bible readers in Europe were without the benefit of the alleged significance of this single word until modern times. See Booth, R. P., Jesus and the Laws of Purity (1986), at 50 (“The preservation of καθαρίζων, notwithstanding its grammatical difficulty, argues for Mark’s hand . . .”). See also, generally, Bruce, F. F., History of the Bible in English, 3d ed. (1978), at 135-203 (discussing translation controversies following availability of Vatican and Sinaitic codices in the late nineteenth century); Metzger, B. M., The Bible in Translation: Ancient and English Versions, Ch. 6 (“By the middle of the nineteenth century, the study of the Greek manuscripts had shown beyond question that the King James Version was based upon a Greek text that contained the accumulated errors of fifteen centuries of manuscript copying.”), Ch. 12 (discussing history of translations catering to conservative American readers from, 1952-1978); Barker, K. L., The NIV: The Making of a Contemporary Translation (1986), at 128 (“While it may be true that at times the NIV translators have been guilty of reading something into the text, I would contend that overall this version has achieved a high level of accuracy by its philosophy of translation.”); Goddard, B. L., The NIV Story: The Inside Story of the New International Version (1989), at 38-39 (“The translators will seek to communicate to those who read or heard it as originally given–no more and no less . . . Theirs will be an idiomatic version–neither a wooden word-for-word translation nor one characterized by free paraphrase.”).

John 7:53-8:11 is silently included in the KJV as a natural result of the manuscripts available when the translation was published in 1611. This is the story in which Jesus tells an adulterous woman to “go, and sin no more” after telling the crowd prepared to stone her that the member of the crowd who “is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.” After the crowd dispersed, “being convicted by their own conscience,” Jesus asks the woman: “Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?” When the woman responds in the negative, Jesus says to her: “Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.” The NIV prefaces John 7:53 with the following disclosure: “[The earliest manuscripts and many other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53—8:11. A few manuscripts include these verses, wholly or in part, after John 7:36, John 21:25, Luke 21:38 or Luke 24:53.]”, and italicizes John 7:53-8:11. Similarly, in the RSV we find a footnote after John 8:11, which says: “The most ancient authorities omit 7.53–8.11; other authorities add the passage here or after 7.36 or after 21.25 or after Luke 21.38, with variations of text.” An obvious question presents itself: if the earlier manuscripts upon which the RSV and NIV are based are sufficiently authoritative to confidently convert a hanging masculine active participle into “Jesus declared all foods clean,” then why are they not sufficiently authoritative to delete the added story of John 7:53-8:11? Compare Knust, J. & Wasserman, T., To Cast the First Stone: The Transmission of a Gospel Story (2019), at 343-44 (“Our survey of the evidence has convinced us that the story was interpolated into a Greek copy of John in the West, probably during the first half of the third century, and with great care; that the Johannine pericope was then gradually but decisively brought into texts, liturgy, and art in Greek and Latin, albeit at different rates; and thus that the story was not actively suppressed on theological grounds, either in its initial version(s) or in its Johannine (and Lukan!) forms, despite the custom among some Byzantine scribes and scholars of identifying the passage as spurious.”) withe.g., Various Authors, “Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy” (1978) (“WE AFFIRM that inspiration, strictly speaking, applies only to the autographic text of Scripture, which in the providence of God can be ascertained from available manuscripts with great accuracy. We further affirm that copies and translations of Scripture are the Word of God to the extent that they faithfully represent the original. WE DENY that any essential element of the Christian faith is affected by the absence of the autographs. We further deny that this absence renders the assertion of Biblical inerrancy invalid or irrelevant.”).

The idea of benefitting from the covenant YHWH allegedly made with the Israelites, without being an Israelite, caught on rather quickly, especially among governments. By 250 AD, around 2 percent of the Roman Empire’s total population was Christian. See Fox, R. L., Pagans and Christians (1986) [Penguin ed. 2006], at 244 (“Christians spread and increased: no other cult in the Empire grew at anything like the same speed[.]”), 287 (describing Christianity as “much the most rapidly growing religion in the Mediterranean,” though “its total membership was still small in absolute terms, perhaps (at a guess) only 2 percent of the Empire’s total population by 250.”). By 312 AD, Paul’s law-free backdoor into Judaism was utilized by Constantine, who is said to have seen the image of a cross in the sky and to have been visited by Jesus in a dream in anticipation of a military campaign, following which he converted, saw military success, and went on to become the uncontested Caesar and sole ruler of the Roman Empire. See generally, id., at 570-76. Soon came the Kingdom of Aksum in modern-day Ethiopia, under its ruler Ezana, who adopted Christianity sometime around 340 AD. See Phillipson, David W., Foundations of an African Civilisation (2012), at 98-99.

In around 380, monotheism caught on in Himyar, located in modern-day Yemen. See Grasso, V. A., “A Late Antique Kingdom’s Conversion: Jews and Sympathizers in South Arabia,” Journal of Late Antiquity 13, no. 2 (2020), at 374 (“Like rulers of neighboring kingdoms—for instance, Constantine, ‘Ēzānā, Tiridates III of Armenia (reigned 287–330), and Mirian III of Kartli in Georgia (reigned 284–361)—, Malkīkarib Yuha’min and his successors recognized the strategic importance of adopting a monotheistic religion to prevent cultural fragmentation and thereby consolidate their power.”). Initially, the faith adopted was a non-specific Judaism-inspired religion. See id., at 361 (noting early inscriptions invoke a non-denominational “Lord of Heaven and Earth” and that “Malkīkarib Yuha’min’s monotheism does not have a particular affiliation and seems to be rather generic”). The situation progressed into a more formalized and militant adherence to Judaism by the early sixth century, culminating in explicit anti-Christian geopolitical warfare. See id., at 369 (“In addition to the aforementioned testimonies clearly attesting to the presence of a Jewish South Arabian community, there are two monumental inscriptions, both dated to the sixth century during the reign of the Jewish king Yūsuf, who ruled from 522 to sometime between 525 and 530. One invokes rb-Hwd b-Rḥmnn (‘Lord of the Jew in/with/by the aid of Rhmnn’), and the other rb-Hd b-Mhmd (‘Lord of the Jews in/with/by the aid of the Highly Praised’).”), 373 (“The Ḥimyarite kings’ choice to adopt a monotheism inspired not by Christianity but by Judaism potentially had international implications, distancing Ḥimyar from Rome, Aksūm, and the Roman foederati of North Arabia . . . It is significant that in 523 the Jewish ruler of Ḥimyar, author of the massacre of the Christian Arabian center of Najrān, wrote to the king of the Sasanians and to Nasrid leader al-Mundhir . . . asking them to follow his example and kill all Christians in their land for 3,000 dinars.”).

Hence, by the time Muhammad was born in Mecca around 570, to his west across the Red Sea lie Aksum, which had adopted Christianity some two centuries earlier, to his south lie Himyar with its Christian community in Najran (presently on the border of Yemen and Saudi Arabia) and official Judaism-inspired monotheism that referred to its Lord (rabb) as Rahmanan (merciful) and Mhmd (beloved/highly praised). To the north, in Syria, lie Harran, where in 568 Arabs were building martyr shrines dedicated to St. John. See University of Oxford, “E02143: Bilingual Greek-Arabic building inscription for a martyr shrine (martyrion) of *John (probably *John the Baptist, S00020), constructed by a phylarch. Found at Ḥarrān, to the northwest of Bostra and Dionysias (Roman province of Arabia). Dated 568.”, https://doi.org/10.25446/oxford.13816601See also Grasso, V. A., Pre-Islamic Arabia (2023), at 202 (discussing Judeo-Christian saturation in Arabia and environs). Even closer, the Nabataean kingdom, including its Hijazi city of Hegra (الْحِجْر / Al-Hijr), had been annexed by the Roman Empire by 107 AD. See Fiema, Z. T., et al., “Provincia Arabia: Nabataea, the Emergence of Arabic as a Written Language, and Graeco-Arabic,” in Arabs and Empires before Islam (Fisher, G., ed., 2015), at 4-5. Hegra continued to be occupied off and on at least until the fourth century, and perhaps as late as the sixth, before it was abandoned. Id., at 10. The ruins of Hegra are located in the modern Medina province of Saudi Arabia. The ruins were apparently known to Muhammad’s audience. See Qur’an 29:38, 15:80-84. During Muhammad’s lifetime, various Arab tribes in the Hijaz, including the Quraysh from which Muhammad hails, were subject to, or at least cooperative with, Himyarite rule. See Fiema, at 15-16. Muhammad and his audience were familiar with the massacre of Christians in Najran, who were considered believers (mu’minun), such that the perpetrators are condemned to hellfire in Sura 85–or at least that is how Sura 85 was interpreted throughout history. Compare Silverstein, A., “Who are the Aṣḥāb al-Ukhdūd? Q 85:4‒10 in Near Eastern Context,” in Der Islam 2:96 (2019), at 282 (“[A]lthough the Martyrs of Najrān episode is most widely adduced in elucidating this Qurʾānic passage, it is in fact the episode recounted in Daniel 3 that is most relevant here.”); Saleh, W. A., “The Qur’an and Communal Memory: Q. 85 and the Martyrs of Najrān,” in Journal of Qur’anic Studies 26:3 (2025) (“This article reviews the massive literature on this sura and proposes that the Najran martyrs remain the most plausible referent.”). Indeed, in Muhammad’s backyard in Medina, Jewish tribes held high status. See Lecker, M., Muslims, Jews, and Pagans: Studies on Early Islamic Medina (1995, 2017 ed.), at 9-10 (“There can be no doubt that when the Prophet arrived at Medina, the Jewish Nadir and Qurayza were the dominant element in the ‘Aliya and in Medina generally . . ."). And Muhammad was intimately familiar with Aksum, too. See Watt, W. M., Muhammad at Mecca (1953), at 100-01 (translating correspondence preserved in al-Tabari regarding Muhammad instructing followers to “go away to the land of the Abyssinians” where: “there was a good king called the Najāshī (or Negus)” and a “land [in which] no one suffered wrong; and moreover he himself was praised for his uprightness. Abyssinia was a market where the Quraysh traded, finding in it ample supplies, security, and good business.”). See also Raven, W., “Some Early Islamic Texts on the Negus of Abyssinia,” in Journal of Semitic Studies XXXIII/2 (1988), at 197 (discussing Islamic tradition that Negus endorsed Muhammad as prophet and sent him gifts, and Muhammad prayed for him upon his death); Cerulli, E., “Ethiopia’s relations with the Muslim World,” in General History of Africa III: Africa from the Seventh to the Eleventh Century (El Fasi, ed., 1988), at 576 (discussing Islamic traditions that "generally refer to the Ethiopian Bilāl and the Prophet’s predilection for him and people of the same origin" and borrowed Ethiopian words found in the Qur'an); Munro-Hay, S., Aksum: An African Civilisation of Late Antiquity (1991), at 209-10 (“An early account of the church’s magnificence is said to have been related to the prophet Muhammad during his last illness by two of his wives, Umm Habiba and Umm Salama, both of whom had been in exile in Ethiopia with their former husbands in the 620s.”) Hence, no credence should be given to the myth that would have us believe that the Qur’an fell out of the sky in a pagan vacuum. Yes, there were pagans, but they were surrounded by, and intermixed with, monotheists of various kinds.

Muhammad, similar to Jeremiah, was supposedly selected for prophethood despite his own doubts regarding his competency. Whereas YHWH commands Jeremiah to speak, and Jeremiah protests that he is too young to speak, Muhammad is commanded to read/recite [iqraʾ], and Muhammad protests that he does not know how to read. See Sahih al-Bukhari 3 (relating traditional account of Muhammad being told to read/recite and Muhammad protesting that he is illiterate); Anthony, S. W., Muhammad and the Empires of Faith (2020), at 228 (“Rather than functioning as a record of Muḥammad’s first prophetic experiences, or even a historically accurate attestation to the authentic past, the iqraʾ narrative first and foremost must be read as a literary artifact of its age, which conveys how early Muslims wished to imagine Muḥammad and how they relied on their image of him to articulate the meaning of prophecy and divine guidance for human affairs, a cultural memory synthesized and constructed from an array of literary forms current in the historical landscape of Late Antiquity.”).

Whereas Paul claimed that access to YHWH no longer depended on covenant compliance because Jesus represented fulfillment of Mosaic law, Muhammad took a different tack by placing access to YHWH behind Moses. It is Muhammad’s claim that submission (islam) to God’s authority is what causes salvation, irrespective of Israelite membership. See Qur’an 3:67 (“Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian; rather he was a hanif (non-idolater) who submitted (muslim) and was non-polytheistic.”); Levenson, J. D., Inheriting Abraham (2012), at 209-10 (“But whereas Paul found in Abraham a foreshadowing of what would eventually become available through the Gospel, the Qur’an presents its message as itself ‘the religion of Abraham’: Abraham was a Muslim.”). Note the parallel with John 8:58-59: “‘Very truly I tell you,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’ At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.” Contrary evidence notwithstanding, the Qur’an claims that the coming of an illiterate prophet, named Ahmed, is foretold in both the Torah and the Gospel(s). See Qur’an 7:157 (“Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them.”); Qur’an 61:6 (“Jesus, son of Mary, said, ‘Children of Israel, I am sent to you by God, confirming the Torah that came before me and bringing good news of a messenger to follow me whose name will be Ahmad.’ Yet when he came to them with clear signs, they said, ‘This is obviously sorcery.’”). The fact that no such foretelling is actually found in either is attributed to deliberate deletion. Seee.g., Qur’an 2:59, 2:75-79, 4:46, 5:13, 6:91.

By tradition, the Qur’an we have today is the result of an early compilation process following Muhammad’s death. We are told that variations existed, but they were deliberately suppressed to avoid the type of debate exhibited by the Jews and Christians. See Déroche, F., The One and the Many: The Early History of the Qur’an (DeBevoise transl., 2021), at 104-05 (translating “Bukhārī’s version, which goes back to Anas b. Malīk” as: “Ḥudhayfa b. al-Yamān presented himself to ‘Uthmān at the time when he was fighting the people of Syria [Shām], seeking to use Iraqi troops to conquer Armenia and Azerbaijan. He had been alarmed by the different ways in which these people recited [the Qur’an]. He therefore said to ‘Uthmān: ‘Commander of the faithful, rescue this community [umma] before it disagrees about Holy Scripture as Jews and Christians have disagreed [about their own scriptures].’ ‘Uthmān therefore sent someone to say to [his wife] Ḥafṣa: ‘Send us the sheets [ṣuḥuf], we will copy them in the maṣāḥif, then we will send them back to you.’ Ḥafṣa sent the sheets to ‘Uthmān and he gave orders to Zayd b. Thābit, ‘Abd Allāh b. Zubayr, Sa‘īd b. al-‘Aṣ, and ‘Abd al-Raḥman b. al-Hārith b. Hishām. These men copied the sheets in the maṣāḥif. ‘Uthmān said to the three Qurayshites [of the group]: ‘If you differ from Zayd b. Thābit over some passage of the Qur’an, copy it in the language of the Quraysh, for the Qur’an has come down in their language.’ This they did. When they had copied the sheets in the maṣāḥif, ‘Uthmān sent the sheets back to Ḥafṣa. And he sent [copies] of the codex that they had made into the various regions and he ordered every other collection [ṣaḥīfa] and every other codex to be burned.”) The evidence is clear that under Uthman a written prototype with the promulgated rasm (consonantal skeleton without the dots necessary to distinguish, e.g., between a “b”, “t”, ” or “th,” or between an “h”, “kh,” or “j”) was distributed and enforced by the eighth century at the latest. Id., at 73, 135 (“Significantly, accounts of the making of a written Qur’an often conclude by mentioning the destruction of earlier codices. ‘Uthmān is said to have ordered them to be burned, torn apart, or even buried.”). Though the Qur’an purports to be the word of God, in certain cases it was abrogated (naskh) based on Muhammad’s conduct (sunnah). For example, the Qur’an mandates corporal punishment for fornication, but stoning was taken as orthodoxy pursuant to reports that Muhammad had ordered it during his lifetime. Compare Qur’an 24:2 (mandating 100 lashes) with Burton, J., The Sources of Islamic Law: Islamic theories of abrogation (1990), at 137 (translating Shafi’i discussion concluding that penalty of flogging for non-virgin non-enslaved fornicators was abrogated in favor of stoning based on Muhammad’s ordering the stoning of Ma’iz b. Malik, who insisted on confessing his adultery, and the practical impossibility of halving stoning in the case of enslaved persons pursuant to Qur’an 4:25), 164 (“On the question of stoning for adultery, all madhhabs are unanimous in agreeing on a penalty nowhere referred to in the mushaf, indeed, in conflict with the penalty that is mentioned there.”). Though the various madhhabs (schools of jurisprudence) were unanimous in concluding that the Qur’anic penalty of flogging had indeed been abrogated, there was variance between them on the question of whether this was by reports of Muhammad’s conduct alone, or by an invisible verse not appearing in the text of the Qur’an. See id. at 164 (discussing disagreement between Malikis and Hanafis, on the one hand, who contended that Muhammad’s conduct abrogated the penalty, and Shafi’i on the other, who contended that such conduct alone may not abrogate Qur’anic provisions and, therefore, the abrogation was the product of a verse not actually appearing in the text).

Conveniently, though each of these faiths depends on revision of a prior faith for its legitimation, the door is always closed behind them. See Deuteronomy 4:2; Deuteronomy 12:32; Malachi 4:4-5; Hebrews 1:1-2; Revelation 22:18-19; Qur’an 5:3; Qur’an 33:40.

Because religion is a technology designed to unify subjects and enable cohesion and cooperation among previously heterogenous people groups, dissent is typically not tolerated. For example, in Leviticus 24 it is related that the son of Shelomith “blasphemed the Name with a curse” and was brought to Moses and confined until such time as “the will of the Lord should be made clear,” following which the Lord instructs Moses: “‘Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him.’ Say to the Israelites: ‘Anyone who curses their God will be held responsible; anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord is to be put to death. The entire assembly must stone them. Whether foreigner or native-born, when they blaspheme the Name they are to be put to death.'” See Leviticus 24:10-16. As we have already discussed, Paul’s activities before his epiphany were dedicated to the persecution of Jews who professed that Jesus was the Messiah. See Galatians 1:13-14; 1 Corinthians 15:9; Philippians 3:6. After that, he himself was supposedly beaten for his own beliefs or proselytism. See 2 Corinthians 11:24. Once Christianity was the dominant doctrine, the authorities were not hesitant to stamp out dissent. See, e.g., Athanassiadi, P., “Persecution and Response in Late Paganism: The Evidence of Damascius,” in Journal of Hellenic Studies cxiii (1993), at 20-21 (“The persecution of individuals was complemented, as usual, by an attack on pagan monuments in and around Alexandria . . . The grammarian [Horapollo] was duly arrested together with his uncle, the philosopher Heraiscus. Both were tortured to make them reveal the names of other co-religionists, but ‘they gnashed their teeth and did not succumb to the tyrant’. . . Yet the pressures on him [Horapollo] had been too many; and the mockery implicit in his appalling betrayal by a wife of impeccable pagan pedigree and upbringing must have struck at the very core of his belief. It was at that point that he broke down and converted to Christianity… Horapollo’s combative spirit had been worn away by a psychological war of attrition which lasted for too long. This failure of nerve was an all-too-common response to Christian intolerance.”). Once Islam was an instrument of imperial power, thought crimes offending the doctrine of the day were likewise prosecuted. See, e.g., Mason, H. W., Al-Hallaj (1995), at xii (“[Hallaj] was taken very seriously in his own time to the point of gathering both disciples and enemies throughout the Islamic world and of being regarded as a political threat to the state and being executed in 922 AD for the charge of heresy. . .”), 50-51 (“In the eighth/fourteenth century, however, a major Hanbalite traditionalist, Ibn Taymiya (728/ 1328), reexamined the trial and execution of Hallaj and concluded the condemnation and terms were just. . . Hallaj was justly condemned. And anyone who is not of this opinion is either hypocritical or ignorant; and whoever approves of him must be killed like him.”).

One could go on and on, but the point seems well established that humans craft religions to meet the needs of their situation, and only then do they retrofit their conclusions to the ancient doctrines from which they purport to derive authority. Once established, the authority is forcefully guarded.


r/DebateReligion 23h ago

Christianity Disobeying God was necessary in the Garden of Eden

7 Upvotes

In Genesis it is described that prior to Adam's and Eve's expulsion that they were not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, it was the one rule God commanded. But what would the world had looked like had this commandment been followed?

Genesis does not state that good and evil did not exist before eating from the tree, only knowledge of it. Without this knowledge, humans would exist essentially in a state of amorality. Amoral beings would have no concept of acceptable rules of behavior with each other whether if it's thou shall not kill or thou shall not commit adultry, etc. Their would not exist any accountability for any action.

Without this knowledge harmful acts could be committed without understanding that the actions were harmful or wrong. Humans would be ruled by our emotions and ego, not by the desire to live cooperatively or for the benefit of each other, that requires a sense of morality and empathy.

Would any of us want to live in a world where no one could understand that harming a child or burning down someone's home for fun is wrong?

So to me it appears that eating of the Tree was a necessary action. Is it not better to have a understanding of morality than to just blissfully dance around ignorant of the harmful actions being committed by one's self or by those around you.

I do read this story allegorically but to me I just don't see a way that eating the from the tree wasn't the right choice and I'm curious if its known if this was the message the original authors of Genesis were trying to convey or if not what was the original meaning behind the story.


r/DebateReligion 4h ago

Christianity (PART 2) Jesus Worshipped the One True God (Allah)—Therefore, He Is Not God

0 Upvotes

PART 1- https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateReligion/s/r18Jh5SKEz

1. After reading the replies from Part 1 , this is my honest conclusion.

2. I am not saying this to insult Christians or attack anyone personally. I respect sincere people who are trying to worship God. But I have to be honest: the doctrine of the Trinity does not make logical sense to me when compared with the clear words of Jesus.

3. The Trinity teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are coequal. But Jesus himself says in John 14:28:

“The Father is greater than I.”

4. That is not a small statement. If the Father is greater than Jesus, then where is the coequal power? Where is the equal authority? Where is the equal status?

5. The moment Jesus says “the Father is greater than I,” the idea that the Father and Jesus are fully equal becomes deeply problematic. A person who is truly equal in power, authority, and status does not say someone else is greater than him.

6. I understand the Trinitarian response. Many Christians say Jesus was speaking according to his human nature, or that the Father is greater in role but not in essence. But this is exactly my issue: the verse itself does not say that. Jesus does not say, “The Father is greater than my human nature but not my divine nature.” He simply says, “The Father is greater than I.”

7. So from my view, this is not a direct explanation. It is a theological escape route.

8. My argument is not based on one verse only. It is based on a repeated pattern in the Bible: Jesus prays to God, worships God, submits to God, is sent by God, receives authority from God, and calls the Father the only true God. That pattern sounds like a servant and messenger of God, not God Himself.

9. Another thing I noticed is that different Christians interpret these verses in different ways. One person says it means role, another says nature, another says mystery, another says context, another brings a different verse. But where is the unified, clear explanation that all Christians agree on?

10. If the Bible is supposed to guide people to the truth, why does the central belief about God require so many complicated explanations?

11. That is why I believe the doctrine of the Trinity should be seriously reconsidered and ultimately removed from Christianity. Not because I hate Christians, but because I believe Jesus himself taught pure worship of the one true God.

12. My question remains simple:

If Jesus clearly said the Father is greater than him, and if Jesus worshipped and prayed to the Father, why should I worship Jesus instead of worshipping the one God that Jesus himself worshipped?

So in conclusion, why should Christians not follow this clear Bible verse that all Christians already accept?

Matthew 4:10 says:

Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”

This is a direct and simple statement from Jesus himself. Worship the one true God, Allah, and serve Him only. Do not associate partners with Him.

If someone tries to reinterpret this by saying Jesus did not really mean it literally, then that is exactly my issue. The verse itself is clear. The confusion only begins when people add later theological explanations based on their own interpretations.


r/DebateReligion 1d ago

Christianity Jesus is not the same God of the OT .

11 Upvotes

Jesus contradicts the OT God’s behavior that you can‘t consider them as part of trinity that share a divine essence.

See these examples:

Treatment of Enemies:  1 Samuel 15:3 — "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys."

 Matthew 5:43–44 — "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you."

Justice and Retribution: Leviticus 24:19–20 — "Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. Just as they injured the other, so they are to be injured."

 Matthew 5:38–39 — "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also."

Violating the Sabbath: Numbers 15:32, 35 — "While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day... Then the Lord said to Moses, 'The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.'"

 Mark 2:27 — "Then he said to them, 'The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.'"

Punishment for Adultery: Leviticus 20:10 — "If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death."

 John 8:7 — "When they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up and said to them, 'He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.'"

Generational Guilt: Exodus 20:5 — "I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me."

 John 9:2–3 — "His disciples asked him, 'Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?' 'Neither this man nor his parents sinned,' said Jesus."

In Christianity God has an unchanging nature, If God is unchanging (Malachi 3:6), his definition of absolute morality cannot evolve from "slaughter infants" to "love your enemies."


r/DebateReligion 1d ago

Atheism First Cause and Necessary Being are fallacious arguments that over time become weaker

16 Upvotes

My thesis is the title. That first cause and necessary being are arguments that eventually fall into the god of the gaps fallacy and that as time and discoveries go by these arguments for a god become weaker and weaker.

First argument is that these arguments are fallacies. They both at one point have to say we don’t really know so…… therefore god.

My brief understanding of first cause is that as the name suggests an argument that states that since, so far, everything has a cause therefore there needs to be something to have started it all. Necessary being states that since everything needs an external cause to act therefore there must be a necessary being to have acted first.

These are rough definitions and aren’t the full arguments. If I’m missing something important or if I have a misunderstanding please let me know.

Second argument is that throughout human history whenever we couldn’t explain a natural event the “god did it” has so far not been the answer. We see paradigms shift after new natural mechanisms are discovered, not after new religious revelations. Newton physics was updated with Einstein’s special relativity which was not “well……god”.

Since it hasn’t been the answer yet, why do we think it is later on in the process?


r/DebateReligion 6h ago

Christianity Is Allah the antichirst

0 Upvotes

The thing is christianity taught us abt the antichirst who will deceive us by false teachings and as we all know the Quran came 600 years after the bible and the fact that Islam reject so many teachings in the Bible implies that Allah might be the antichirst that Jesus waned us abt. So many Muslims come to the argument that Jesus never directly said that he was God but he actually did so many times. As in ​Mark 14:61–62:

"Again the high priest asked him, 'Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?' 'I am,' said Jesus. 'And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.'"

Bible

1 John 2:22 – "Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son."

1 John 4:2–3 – Speaks about confessing Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh and warns about "the spirit of the antichrist."

2 John 1:7 – Warns about deceivers who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ coming in the flesh.

John 1:1, 14 – The Word was God, and the Word became flesh.

John 8:58 – "Before Abraham was, I am."

Hebrews 1:8 – Refers to the Son: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever."

Qur'an

Surah 4:171 – Rejects saying "Three" and teaches that Jesus is a messenger of Allah, not God.

Surah 5:72–75 – Rejects the belief that Christ is God.

Surah 5:116 – Describes God asking Jesus whether he told people to worship him and his mother.

Surah 9:30 – Criticizes those who say God has a son.

Surah 112:1–4 – States that Allah is One and "He neither begets nor is born."

The Quran has so many contradictions with the Bible..


r/DebateReligion 1d ago

Other Religious experience can't be evidence for your religion over the rivals

23 Upvotes

Let me begin by saying that I don't think the supernatural is a candidate explanation. But this is a particular line that I am developing and I want to test it here.

So let me be upfront with the claim.

Religious experience can only favor your religion over a rival if your experience is more likely on the assumption that your religion is true than on the assumption that a rival religion is true, and than on the assumption that the experience has an ordinary natural cause.

If no feature of your experience is more likely under your religion than under those alternatives, it carries no weight for your religion in particular, whatever weight it may carry for religion in general.

This is a claim about likelihood, not origins or fakery.

Let me put it formally:

An experience E supports hypothess H over rival H* only if P(E | H) > P(E | H*). For a religious experience to favor your religion, its likelihood under your religion must exceed its likelihood under both rival religion and a natural explanation. Where those likelihoods are roughly equal, the likelihood ratio is about one and the experience does not move you toward your religion.

And let me concede the strong part, so that the argument isn't mistaken for a bigger one.

I am not claiming:

a. that religious experience is worthless as evidence.

b. that it carries no generic weight. Grant, for this post, that the felt presence of god nudges "there is a transcendent reality" or "some form of theism is true" a little upward. I am not contesting that.

What I am contesting is narrower, one thing: its power to favor YOUR religion over the incompatible ones.

This is the scope and please if you are going to debate, keep it here: experience as the ground of belief.

Don't bring the cosmological, fine tuning, resurrection, all those arguments in favor of a deity, I am not discussing them here. That's a different debate.

And please notice that I am not claiming your experience and a muslim's are identical, because I have no way to measure that and I do not need to. In this case the burden runs the other way. If you want the experience to select YOUR religion, YOU are the one asserting it discriminates, so YOU are the one who has to name the discriminating feature.

If a test comes back positive for everyone it tells you nothing about who has the disease. Yes, it can be a real result, driven by a real cause, and still have no diagnostic power, because the probability of a positive is the same whether the patient is sick or well. So the likelihood ratio is one and nothing about the posterior moves.

So, put religious experience in that frame: a felt certainty of a real, present god comes back positive for the sunni, the catholic mystic, the mormon, the pentecostal, a jw, and the members of heaven's gate.

If the feeling is roughly as expected under islam as under christianity as under a natural account of how brains generate conviction, then its likelihood ratio between those hypotheses is about one, and it cannot move you toward any of them in particular. It might still lift the generic hypothesis, but it cannot pick a winning religion.

Someone will answer that their experience is not generic, that it had content. They met christ and not a formless presence, and a Muslim did not meet christ, so that content is the discriminating feature.

But look at what the content tracks. It tracks the tradition the experiencer already holds, so catholics meet mary, hindus meet krishna, pentecostals meet the spirit, and each report is as vivid and as convincing as the next. The content of the experience lines up with the prior beliefs of the one having it, across every tradition, whether or not that tradition is true. That is a known fact about religious experience, and it is exactly what you would expect on either hypothesis: your religion true, or brains generating conviction shaped by what the person already believes.

So the content does not help you. Once we notice that experiences reliably deliver the content of whatever tradition the experiencer was already in, the content is screened off from the question of which tradition is true. "It contained christ" is fully explained by "a christian had it," and that explanation holds whether christianity is true or false. To use the content as evidence for your religion, you would have to show that your tradition produces its matching content at a higher rate than every rival produces theirs, and no one has that number. Everyone's positive is equally positive.

So the whole question reduces to one thing.

Is there a feature of your experience that is more probable if your religion is true than if a rival is, or than if it has an ordinary cause? Now, I am not demanding that you exclude every rival decisively, because that would be too strong, and most good evidence can't do it. It is only a demand that you name one feature of YOUR experience that tips the likelihood toward your religion specifically.

If you can, you have discriminatory evidence and I concede the point. If you can't, you have a positive test that reads positive for everyone.


r/DebateReligion 20h ago

Christianity A challenge to the traditional Christian explanation of suffering, free will, and Hell

2 Upvotes

I’m agnostic right now and I’m trying to understand how Christians respond to this argument. I’m not claiming I’ve disproven Christianity or that I know for certain that God doesn’t exist. I’m genuinely asking where my reasoning is wrong.
Also, before anyone focuses on the phrase “all-loving”: I know not every person who believes in God defines God as all-loving in the same way. That’s not really the point of my argument. I’m specifically talking about the traditional Christian idea of God being omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good/loving. If you don’t believe God has those attributes, then obviously this argument might not apply to your specific version of God. But saying “my god isn’t all-loving” doesn’t really address the argument I’m making.
The first thing I struggle with is the idea of God being hidden from us.
A common response to this is that God doesn’t give everyone undeniable proof because he wants people to have faith and free will. But I don’t really understand that.
According to Christianity, some people supposedly directly saw Jesus, saw miracles, and had experiences that people today simply cannot have. If people could supposedly witness Jesus performing miracles and still reject him, then why didn’t God just continue revealing himself?
Why not appear to every generation? Why not give everyone the same level of evidence?
If Jesus had stayed around and kept revealing himself, then disbelief would at least be more like an actual rejection of God rather than someone simply not being convinced.
Instead, people are born in completely different cultures and religions, at different points in history, and with completely different amounts of evidence. Yet some of them are apparently judged for not believing.
I know the response is usually that God judges people based on the amount of knowledge or evidence they had. But that still doesn’t answer why God allows the evidence to be so unequal in the first place.
The next thing I struggle with is the free will argument.
A lot of Christians say that God had to allow evil and suffering because genuine free will requires the ability to choose evil.
But does it actually?
Christianity says that God is free and perfectly good. It also says that people in Heaven are free, conscious, capable of love, and have personalities, but no longer desire sin or evil.
So why couldn’t God have created humans in that kind of state from the beginning?
I’m not asking why God didn’t create another God. I understand that a created being can’t literally be God. I’m asking why God couldn’t create finite, contingent beings who were still free, conscious, loving, and incapable of wanting to do evil.
The usual response seems to be that people in Heaven became that way through a process. They had to go through life, make choices, struggle, and develop their character.
But then I don’t really understand why the process is necessary.
If God can eventually create or bring about beings who are free but don’t desire evil, then why couldn’t he have created beings like that from the start?
The response is often that freely developed goodness is more meaningful than goodness that is simply given to someone.
But then why doesn’t that apply to God?
God is supposedly perfectly good and free without needing to develop into that state through suffering, temptation, or moral struggle. So why is it impossible for God to create beings who are free and good from the beginning?
I also don’t really understand the idea that God values the journey enough to justify the suffering involved.
A human parent could not intentionally put their child through extreme suffering just because the process would make the child stronger or make their eventual goodness more meaningful. Especially if that parent could have achieved the same result without the suffering.
So why is this considered loving when God does it?
I’m not saying that God would have to make every moment of life comfortable. I’m asking why a world with this much suffering was necessary if God is omnipotent.
And this is where the free will argument seems to stop explaining things for me, because so much suffering has nothing to do with human free will.
Why do animals have to experience pain?
Why did God create predation, where animals have to kill and eat other animals to survive?
A gazelle being eaten by a lion isn’t a consequence of the gazelle making a morally bad choice. Animals experienced pain, fear, disease, and death long before humans existed.
So human free will can’t explain all of that.
The same goes for natural diseases and disasters.
Why create cancer, genetic disorders, parasites, earthquakes, tsunamis, and other things that can cause massive suffering?
A baby being born with a horrible disease didn’t choose that. A person dying in an earthquake didn’t necessarily suffer because another human exercised free will.
So why would an all-powerful and perfectly loving God create a world with all of these things?
God could presumably have created a world where animals didn’t need to kill each other, where organisms didn’t experience pain, where diseases didn’t exist, and where natural disasters didn’t happen.
I understand that a Christian can say “God has reasons we don’t understand,” but at some point that seems like it can be used to explain literally anything.
The biggest problem for me, though, is Hell.
Imagine a Christian has a close friend who isn’t Christian. Now imagine God personally tells that Christian that their friend will never convert and will eventually go to Hell.
That Christian now knows that their friend is supposedly going to experience the worst possible fate.
Now imagine that same friend is kidnapped and tortured horribly by a human being.
Would the Christian feel angry at the person doing it? Would they feel sympathy for their friend? Would they want the torture to stop?
I assume most people would.
And to be clear, I am not defending the human torturer at all. I’m making the opposite point. I’m asking why the human torturer would be condemned for causing extreme suffering while God would be praised for allowing or imposing something infinitely worse.
If Hell is eternal, then any finite torture on Earth is ultimately nothing compared to it.
So why is causing extreme suffering considered evil when a human does it, but perfectly just when God does something infinitely worse?
The usual answer is that the person “deserves Hell.”
But why does a finite amount of wrongdoing deserve infinite punishment?
A person only lives for a finite amount of time and can only commit a finite amount of actions. So how can the punishment be infinite?
Another response is that rejecting an infinite God is an infinite offense.
But what if someone isn’t rejecting God out of hatred? What if they simply aren’t convinced?
What if they were born into another religion? What if they sincerely searched and still couldn’t believe? What if God never gave them enough evidence to become convinced?
Is sincere disbelief really the same as knowingly rejecting a God you are certain exists?
This is where I struggle with the moral reasoning.
If a human being tortured someone, we would say it is evil because causing extreme suffering is wrong.
But when God causes or allows suffering that is infinitely greater, the response often becomes “it’s good because God did it.”
That seems like morality is just based on power.
If a powerful king tortured someone, the fact that he was powerful wouldn’t automatically make torture good. So why would God’s authority alone make something morally good?
I’m not saying this proves that God doesn’t exist. I also don’t think atheism means believing that “nothing came from something.” As far as I understand it, atheism just means not being convinced that a god exists. The question of how the universe began is a separate question. Someone can be atheist or agnostic and still say they don’t know how the universe ultimately came into existence.
My actual point is just that I don’t understand how these things fit together:
God is omnipotent
God is omniscient
God is perfectly good/loving
God created the universe and its laws
God created beings who apparently could have been free and morally perfected from the beginning
God created a world with massive natural suffering unrelated to free will
God gives people unequal amounts of evidence
And, depending on the theology, God may eternally punish people who are not convinced
I don’t think this automatically proves that no God exists. I just don’t see why I should be confident that the traditional Christian concept of God is true when I find these problems so difficult to reconcile.
So where exactly does my reasoning fail?
I’m genuinely asking. I’d rather someone address the actual points instead of just saying “my God isn’t all-loving,” because if that is your position, then fine, but it doesn’t really answer an argument aimed at the traditional Christian idea of a perfectly loving, all-powerful God.


r/DebateReligion 1d ago

Atheism 9 reasons why i think relegion as a whole is fake ( repost from a christian sub )

5 Upvotes

( sorry for the typos )

  1. disconnect in logic To keep it short, i agree there is A god, some sort of more powerful being, the big bang happened, but not on its own, we can all agree there. The disconnect i see in Christians is that, because A god must exist, OUR god must be real.

No, we are a unfathomably small sliver of the universe living in an unfathomably small time frame of everything that has existed, we arent special, earth, one of many spinning rocks, isnt special.

Side note: The sun, one of many stars, isnt special, the bible references the sun as this holy thing multiple times, even saying he created “ the sun “ on the fourth day, implying that the sun is some sort of official god given miracle, when its actually just a sun which has such a gravitational field that we happen to circle around it. Might i add much bigger stars do exist.

  1. The eye witnesses of jesus.

Go online right now and look for eye witnesses of a flying pony, ill bet you will find more eye witnesses of that then jesus, people lie, people say things, this is how it is. Cant trust words.

  1. False prophets. 

We have many documented false prophets in many civilizations who tried rallying everyone and ended up getting stoned to death, jesus was most likely one that succeeded.

  1. other relegions existance

the truth is if 1 relegion is correct all the rest are wrong and were made up by humans.
in my opinion there being many other relegions prives 2 things,

  1. people naturally seak a creator, because they want to know how they came to be
  2. they are willing to make stuff up to fill that void, best example is people believing fire was their god when they found it.
  3. jesus refered to as " he "

men were more " important " back in the day becasue of the job market, every job you could get was a pyhsical one, raw power was valued, infact during and wayy after these times, when governments counted people for tax purposes they did not even count woman, if you make up a relegion in these times its best if you probaly refer to it as he no?

  1. inconsistancy

god is all loving, yet he is an oknipoten being, makes no sense omnipotent being can not feel.

  1. knowledge

what about someone who lives in such a plce he never hears about christianity? what about people born before him? why did he come so late and why doesnt he come again? id say we need him more than ever.

  1. another inconsistancy

one take i heard which i agreed with originaly was, if christ came down and just told everyone he existed life wuld have no meaning, everyone would always be happy because they know there is more waiting fir them aftr death, i agree, hardship and doubt, is needed.

but according to the bible he already came down... he already did this.

this makes no sense for the evolutio nof humanity. there wouldnt be any point to life.

  1. inconsistancy in peoples mentality

i saw someone filming their daughter who was in a car crash, the car was totaly totaled yet she was completly unharmed, the father filming kept saying this waa gods work over and over.

yet what people like this fail to realize is someone elses father, mother, daughter, son probably died in a less fatal car crash that same day,.

someoen was kidnapped that day. someone was r*ped that day. is this also " gods work " ?

i wonder if he would have felt like " this is gods plan, must be for a reason " if his daughetr didnt survive that..