Feel free to disagree but perhaps it's better she changes this drastically.

Belveth is currently my most played Champion, the highest mastery and all around my favorite champion. I hit emerald for the first time ever with her and as many like to invade I like the outplay potential of the champ. But it is not my favorite way to play her I like feeling like a lingering threat, a monster that can and will devour everything if left unchecked.

Perhaps I'm alone but maybe the changes bring more players to her. Which means more attention, balancing and skins.

I was devastated back in the day when Pantheon was rework or Diana was reworked because I loved the simple gameplay look and niche of the champions. With time those reworks proved effective, many players started playing Pantheon and Diana. For better or worse the change is already here and maybe just maybe change is good.

Personally I am open to change, I want to feel something other than urgency. I want my late game to matter and to have effective presence.

But that's me, if I don't like her well it's unlucky. But with many other champions that have change moving on to something similar is the best next thing.

I'm just thinking what Kha'six would say.

Okay so everyone's been wondering about which keystone is best for new Bel'Veth, so I sat down and actually crunched the numbers. Assumptions below, but TL;DR: the stacking mechanic changes everything.

I've tested this with multiple "typical itemization" checkpoints, and the results mostly stay the same

just to get an idea here is some numbers for damage dealt over 3 seconds:

PTA and Conqueror both boost the damage per hit, nice, but linear. Lethal Tempo boosts your attack speed, which means more attacks, and because the R passive stacks infinitely and compounds every single attack, that extra attack speed doesn't just add damage linearly, it adds it quadratically.

PTA and Conqueror are basically fighting over table scraps (~7-8% gain) while Lethal Tempo is out here nearly doubling your true damage output by just... letting the snowball roll longer.

Math only covers the R passive true damage in isolation and with no items, no Q/E procs, no crit, no lifesteal. Real in-game numbers will obviously be higher across the board, but the relative gap between keystones should hold since it's driven by the stacking mechanic itself.

https://x.com/i/status/2079674747873268048

With the Bel'Veth midscope rework gutting her early game in exchange for late game scaling while her kit current has problem reliably outputting such dps. Riot is officially killing off one of the last expressive playstyles in the jungle.

What makes belveth rewarding to play is not the stat checking aspect. It’s she has options. A ton of options. It legit makes you think hard how you should approach the game from the loading screen. She is like a Swiss knife in the jungle. She is the perfect soloq jungler. She is extremely blindable and adaptable. She is one of those junglers who could step outside the standard full clear clear box and get the game rolling without shooting yourself in the foot. You start playing the game from minute 0. Now? She is being forced into the exact same braindead, lowrisk, powerfarm loop as every other standard jungler. If your lanes int? Sorry gg go next.

Imagine she gained a huge playerbase. The riot nerfs the shit out of her. It wouldn’t surprise me some otp can drop from low master to emerald. That’s what happened in 2024 gwen jungle 2024 tank Diana.

An OTP kindred, nidalee, lee sin, reksai will almost always be a better jungler that a otp lillia karthus when you put all of them into a J4 imo. Power farming junglers are extremely one dimensional, all you left for skill expression is mostly mechanics. All your play pattern is farm up get to your spike and play fights. Jungling should be about decision making, risk management. You don’t even have to f keying lanes post rework because you are so weak early your definition of a free kills is almost nonexistent. You don’t even bother to walk into midlane for a 100hp enemy zed shoving before reset. Because he can just walk away from you.

A master gwen jg otp and a gold gwen jg otp will almost play out exactly the same other than the execution of the champion and some simple macro here and there.

On the other hand there is a massive difference between a master belveth and a gold belveth. It’s not even close.

I’m sure a lot of people are excited for the rework. But I truly feel sorry for people that don’t understand this. What makes belveth belveth. You are not playing jungle. You are playing “belveth jungle”.

People complain about ranged top and spam all chat ff15 x9 jg afk while riot is turning every jungler into braindead full clear slave and lock them into the jungle. You cant even sacrifice your agency and enable a lane because all you can do is clear.

Terminus is getting a buff, and now the On-Hit damage scales scales with both AP and Bonus AD.

That sounds like a great sinergy with Guinsoo, which gives both stats.

I was thinking something like Guinsoo 2nd and Terminus 3rd or 4th with the reworked Bel'Veth, does this make sense?

No more lifesteal scaling on E. I love BORK on bel and idk if the item is gonna be much worse or not. Maybe the change is not that big of a deal. Opinions?

Hi I am a seraphine main and obviously everyone knows abt the long list of bel changes for scaling she is getting

I just wanted to ask though do most of her mains want this change? Do most of her mains prefer current bel? Do causal bel players care?

Just asking in context of a group of us sera mains want her scaling fantasy back as it is completely gone from us cuz of support seraphine.

Anyways have a good day night whatever whenever you are reading this!

Something to consider

Like you may love the changes coming or you may hate them but can we leave it that??💀 like HOLY FUCK, is it necessary putting people down and being total babies, if u think that she was better before that is fine!! if you like the changes that is fine!!

since when do we all need to share the same opinion and if we don’t share the same opinion FUCK YOU AND ALL YOU THINK IS WRONG, LOW ELO TRASH.

and the satire posts? 🤣 i’m sorry but holy hell what is wrong with people…

I sympathize with people who has lost their fave champ like skarner, asol and etc but then with how a lot of people in this sub behave it becomes difficult to even feel bad for them and i lowkey feel satisfied that these immature people won’t get what they want, for the people who aren’t like this tho it sucks tho ofc but i hope the changes won’t make u drop bel’veth and that you can still enjoy her :P

so the scaler was removed but if you build lifesteal it still applies to E, right? cuz it's attacks?

PLEASE READ BEFORE COMMENTING!!!

(I added a TLDR in the comments if you just want the change ideas without the reasoning for them though)

I've always wanted for Bel'Veth to have direct stack scalings, so she is more like other infinite scalers instead of just stacking attack speed (which in large part just makes up for her not getting attack speed with level). A midscope would be the perfect time to add that.

A big complaint of Bel'Veth is that she doesn't fulfill her fantasy (both before the midscope AND after people still think she doesn't really fit), and while I almost entirely disagree with that sentiment, I think a lot of it comes from her stacks being attack speed and nothing else. Every other infinite scaler in the game (aside from Bard who is debateable. Swain and Sion don't count IMO) has direct stack scalings, even the ones who directly gain stats from their stacks (Thresh and Senna's stacks are almost entirely about the stats they give, but they still have direct stack scalings on their abilities), so why should Bel'Veth be different?

Reduce her base damages, and give her not overwhelming but nonetheless impactful stack scalings. Specifically W and R. Q and E don't need stack scalings, as they already benefit from the attack speed the stacks give. W and R not only don't benefit from the attack speed, but actively work agaisnt it with their cast times.

So this is what I mean by giving them stack scalings:

W: Damage from 80 to 320 gaining 60 damage per level, to 60 to 220 gaining 40 per level (still missing the bAD scaling the midscope took away). This would come out to a total 100 damage nerf at max rank. The W would gain a 100% stack scaling, so each stack increases the W damage by 1. This would mean the damage is the same with W at max rank at 100 stacks. So the damage is less at max W rank if you have less than 100 stacks, and more if you have more. While the W damage is slightly higher throughout the game before you put points into W.

Basically, the W's base damage would be how it is pre midscope, but with the bAD ratio still removed yet made up for by a 100% stack scaling.

Bel'Veth is almost never going to get siginifcantly more than 100 stacks in a game, so this wouldn't make her W do very much more damage at max, what it would moreso serve to do is make it's damage scale more consistently throughout the match. If you are maxing W last (which I think it should be a choice whether to max W or E second, not just max E second everygame), the insane 60 base damage per level with no AD scaling just makes it's damage way too lopsided. It goes from 80 damage all game (unless you are building AP which most players in most games won't) to 320 way too fast and way too suddenly. The ability already gains a lot of power from putting levels into with the knockup duration, it doesn't need insane damage per level too. If they are dedicated to keeping the AD ratio gone, less base damage growth with stack scaling would not only make the ability's damage more consistent throughout the game, but it would help her fulfill her stacking fantasy. Even if the damage is basically the same maybe very slightly higher with the stack scaling, it would feel way better and way more like you are stacking up.

R: Damage from 150 to 250, gaining 50 per level, to 85 to 155, gaining 35 per level. It would gain a 200% stack scaling (this is exclusively for the flat damage, not the missing health damage). All the same benefits as the W getting a stack scaling. This would be an overall slight buff to the R damage, so maybe the base would have to be lower, or maybe 200% is too much.

How Q and E could scale with stacks so every active ability does:

Q: Dash speed: 850 --> 800 + 200% stacks (so the dash cast time is reduced with stacks, the distance remains the same. I honestly don't know why it wasn't like this in the first place)

E: Range: 500 --> 450 + 100% stacks (so even at 50 stacks, 10% increase at 100)

Making Q and E deal damage with stacks wouldn't be the best idea as they already effectively do with Q lowering the cooldown and E getting more attacks (though I don't think a stack ratio on Q damage would be a bad idea, I think the dash speed would be better). The Q dash speed increasing with stacks would help greatly with the feel of the champion. Higher dash speed means less time spent in the dash, which means more time you can be basic attacking making use of the attack speed you have. With enough stacks, you could really feel like Bel'Veth in her cinematic, where her dash is almost instant. The ability just feels so much better with higher dash speed. E range is just sorta a no brainer, except maybe the numbers I have would be OP (though I doubt it. I don't see how a 10% nerf to it's range at 0 stacks and a 10% buff at 100 would be too good, if anything more of a nerf).

Less practical ideas:

R on-hit: The R on hit already scales with the stacks as it is an on hit which gets applied more with attack speed, but still, a very small stack scaling would do wonders not only for the fantasy of it but the balance of the champion. Damage from 2 to 6 gaining 2 per level, to 2 to 4 gaining 1 per level. A considerable nerf, but it would gain a 3% stack scaling (gaining 1 damage every 33 stacks, so 3 more damage at 100 stacks). This would be very minor, but would still have all the same benefits as the other two stack scalings. Besides, if anything that already benefited from the stacks should have a stack scaling, it should be the R on hit.

Passive: I hate how the midscope makes the passive attack speed after ability 20% flat with no scaling. So what if it scaled with stacks? This might seem counter intuitive, but hear me out.

Reduce the stacks efficiency from .1% to 2% (growth = .05-.15) to .07 to 1.6% (growth = .09) scaling with level, but make the attack speed after ability cast gain .4% per stack regardless of level. And make the passive give 15% flat instead of 20%. So a nerf to the super early, decent buff to the mid game, and very minor buff to the late game.

What this would mean, is that the stacks are slightly less effective without the passive, but slightly more effective with the passive. It would make stacks worth more early, so it doesn't feel like they don't do anything until later into the game, and it would make the attack speed after cast feel less useless past the first clear. So without making the stacks scale in value faster or be worth more early, they would indirectly be worth more early, with their value more consistent throughout the game instead of being almost valueless early and incredible late.

If .4% flat would be too much early, it could be .1%-.44%, gaining .02% per level. Still better early without being too OP. OR, it could just be .2% at all levels, with the stacks being worth .1% to 1.8%. Again, a buff to the early game stack value and making their value more consistent throughout the game at the cost of having a portion of the stacks value locked behind the attack speed after cast.

Or it could just be a flat out buff and have each stack increase the passive attack speed by .1% with the stack value unchanged. A very minor buff (10% more attack speed only after cast at 100 stacks), but again, this is mainly to make the ability feel better and the chanpion feel more like a stacker.

Again, this would not only make the champion feel more like a scaler/stacker, but make her power more consistent throughout the match, instead of being like pre midscope where it's too good early, or post midscope where it's all about late. She would both be more of a late game scaler, without being auto win condition late game.

Is this reasonable? I ask this as a genuine question. Is this something you guys would want? Do you think it would make more people play the champion? Do you think it would be balanced (or at least able to be balanced with tweaks)?

My answer to all of those is yes, what are yours?

I dont like this change at all. It was my favorite thing to maximize the true dmg from the active and play around the coral execute. I hope they change it back to previous 25% missing hp%

I just wanted to state my opinion somewhere

i have another great idea!!! make malzahar a jungler, give him 1.5x of zyra or darius monster modifiers!!!! or maybe 10x!!!! people gonna love it

Good change I guess, but at what point do they admit they should have just kept the W the same?

One of my biggest complaints of the midscope was that it was too level reliant, and this helps address that at least a little bit, but again, why not just leave the W alone? Why change it at all? They didn't have to change it just because they were changing everything else

I have been trying the rework on pbe a lot recently I personally enjoy the idea of this new Bel (with some caveats) and I've read here most people here don't share my thoughts but still I have found multiple things I want to note people might haven't noticed.

1. Optimal runes are most likely not the same for new Bel, I think lethal tempo and hail of blades are way better for this version than before since bel now gets much bigger attack speed stat late game and early you autoattack a lot more and deal 100% damage instead of 75%, also attack speed on spell isn't capped to 2 autoattacks which makes it interact better with LT.

2. Navori is borderline OP I'm very convinced the W-E-W combo with Navori and LT (because you fully stack it) is way too strong since knocking up people 2 seconds for a master yi like champion is too much and having such a little cooldown for her E which can heal more than 50% hp from the big damage and life steal, I can almost guarantee Riot will remove the interaction mark my words.

3. Bel not only scales more with stacks, she also scales very good with levels, I'm starting to get convinced she might scale even better with levels than stacks, specially E which gets very low cooldown and craaazy life steal considering 60% dmg reduction, which is probably good for top mid Bel.

I'm not claming she's op or good rn, specially after the last change she might be weak, I'm not sure since I've been able to beat enemies sometimes lvl 1 or lvl 2 even on invades only with LT or hob and I'm not high elo, I think one of the biggest mistakes of the rework is removing the 75% damage effectiveness in exchange for attack speed, she's sacrificing too much attack speed and losing part of her identity imo for that change.

Overall I like the direction this rework is taking, I mean, I suggested a full rework time ago and they did implemented some of my suggestions https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/s/IDTu2q8boq (probably not because of me but I don't complain) tho if a Rioter wants some humble Bel'veth main suggestions or ideas of what could be additionally done to her here's what I'd test:

1. Change Q to 3 seconds lvl 1, bring back reduced damage to 80% but it increases with lvls up to 100% lvl 18 and bring back part of the attack speed ratio and base attack speed for better feeling
2. If Bel late game turns out weak or there's a need to rebalance the power from spells e.g. W knock up, E life steal, autoattack damage, etc. there are multiple interting ways to buff the late game
3. make Q interact with Lethal Tempo (pls I beg u)
4. don't know if it's a bug, but I think Guinsoo's double on-hit passive should interact with E, currently it does not stack it or apply it at all.
5. since R on-hit base damage is being nerfed, I think would be nice if it scaled more with ad even at expense of losing more base damage to ensure she builds ad instead of tank.
6. make ult form permanent at certain amount of stacks like 120, i.e. Bel stays in ult form even after death.
7. make Q cooldown between Qs scale to 0.5 instead of 1 second.
8. since R on-hit can now stack into multiple targets at the same time, I was thinking would be interesting if E could hit multiple targets at the same time, like Katarina ult.
9. give ult untargetability for animation (0.5 seconds if I'm not mistaken)
10. straight-up increase Q dash length and speed, greater auto range allows for longer dash, just would be cool late game champ can do that.

11. make E late game inmune to cc.

12. Early game nerf or changes I'd test:

13. As I said previously I think autoattacks shouldn't do 100% dmg early so I'd make it be 80-100% scaling with lvls ensuring early invades are unviable, if that's the idea.

14. E should be more like 0% damage reduction lvl 1 or 10% life steal to ensure she cannot 1v1 most duelist and fighters lvl 1 or lvl 2 with LT or HOB.

15. make W knockup and E dmg reduction or life steal increase with stacks rather than lvls since leveling those up has extreme comeback potential.

16. remove Navori interaction :(

Tldr: I like rework only with lethal tempo and hail of blades but probably needs a lot of improvements tho new target Bel definetly isn't suited for old playstyle unless Riot wants to settle for a middle ground.

Hey everyone! I’ve got a lot of thoughts that I wanted to share around this midscope to everyone’s favorite champion BelVeth. Just so you guys know you can trust my gameplay knowledge, I’ll let you know that I just hit gold playing Jhin ADC which means I’m in the top half of players.

First: my history with the champ. I played about 3 games of bel when she came out and I was super excited to play a scaling champion in the jungle. I lost all three of those games and then she got nerfed so I said to myself this champ just isn’t right. Riot August agrees with me there. Anyway for the next few years I was confused why she kept getting nerfed when clearly the champ sucks and especially why high elo players are good with her but bronze players have such a low winrate (the champ pilots itself I’m told). I’m glad they are getting rid of her completely degenerate gameplay of just killing all 5 enemy champs on raptors lvl 1 and now she will actually have some skillful gameplay that involves clearing your own jungle camps and recalling.

Enough about me let’s get to the changes

Autos: love love love that they are changing the damage to 100%. Honestly I didn’t know it was reduced to begin with but it was weird and I’m happy that it’s normal now so I don’t have to think about it.

Q: I’ve always thought that bel gameplay looked too fast. Especially when I’m playing my signature Jhin and she comes to my lane. She’s just dashing around at level 4 and I can’t do anything. She dodges my skill shots and then I get hit with her w and I’m toast. Really like these changes

W: this one is basically the same and nothing has changed at all. I would always get annoyed when bel hits me with w and has the dash refreshed so I’m glad that doesn’t work anymore at least

E: wow this ability is good. When she hits level 18 she’s gonna be a monster when she stands still.

R: there’s a lot of numbers here that idk about but the fact that she gets to be in purple mode forever when she gets 80 stacks is really thematic. It reminds me of her lore a lot so I think it’s a good change.

Overall super happy with the changes and I might just give her another 3 games because of this midscope. Super excited to try it out. Please nobody criticize my opinion because you all clearly know nothing and all you wanna do is cheese cheese cheese. Reminder I’m quite high elo so don’t come at me about game knowledge.

Thanks for reading and see you all swimming in the lavender see.

The PBE changes are the worst thing to happen to Bel'Veth since August Browning and Jonathan "EndlessPillows" started designing her. I won't write a whole thesis here about her full history, how her kit felt, or her patch history, but for the last 2 years Bel'Veth has been an awkward champ that just didn't fit. A scaling late-game champion that—let's be honest—doesn't even have the best late game, yet possessed huge early-game potential.

I assume most players picked her up just to live out the fantasy of "I'll transform into True Form and push every lane with my little voidling shitters."

The base stat nerfs mean you won't win a single 1v1. A 4s CD on Q in the early game completely kills the feel of playing her, and W becomes a truly useless spell. Cool, I can knock someone up, but if I used Q earlier, I can't get ahead of the enemy to block their path, meaning you can't buy time for extra auto-attacks—and I promise you nobody is going to stand there like an idiot (unless you're playing against Fiddle... "Fix Krugs pathing/farming for fuck's sake, Sett and Morde are clearing them through the wall!!!!!").

E is tolerable—initially, it barely gives any damage reduction/resists, and the cooldown is huge, as if I were using an ultimate, but oh well, we're supposed to auto-attack, not sling skillshots.

And that's precisely where the problem lies: if I wanted to just auto-attack, I'd pick Master Yi. Untargetability on Q, true damage—what more could you ask for? I can have 40 voidlings in a lane, but what good is that when Yi can kill my midlaner or ADC just by pressing Q? I see no sensible reason to pick any high-attack-speed auto-attacker other than Master Yi.

The change to her R True Form duration overall doesn't change much either. Usually, once you transformed, you either won or kept it infinitely in the late game. If you didn't? Well, you lost because you were half a champion. Current Bel'Veth is played either flawlessly or you lose (at least that's how it feels), so keeping the form until death changes nothing for a player who actually knows how to play her.

To wrap it up: the gameplay feel is terrible. A brainless champ trying to scale like Kayle/Smolder with zero 1v9 potential. From now on, you can't even contest objectives solo, making you even more reliant on your team (Welcome, fellow solo queue junglers where every single lane gives zero fucks about you), which makes snowballing even harder than it was, with no real reward in the late game—because don't be surprised, you're still just average.

Everyone oneshots you anyway, whether you have 2 AS, 4 AS, or 8. You take a combo from a lethality Xin Zhao—you're gone. Syndra dumps her full combo on you—you die.

Riot kept the exact same problems while making the game feel worse for a champ almost nobody plays anyway. Goodbye Bel'Veth, my beautiful temptress. :(

They didn’t put her in the champion adjustments, so we got one more patch to enjoy her.

For reference, I'm currently 300 LP on EUW.

Since my champion is probably going to become unplayable in higher elos, I'd like some advice on champions that are somehow similar to Bel'Veth to OTP. I remember there was a website that recommended champions based on your main and showed how much they synergized with your playstyle, but I haven't been able to find it again.

I really enjoy playing League in my free time after work. I put a lot of time and effort into improving and learning the game because I've always found it interesting. I think I could've pushed more than my 700 LP peak if I had more free time, but work makes that difficult nowadays.

I used to OTP Kayn and Bel'Veth (peaked rank 15 Bel'Veth EUW and around rank 70 globally), but after they removed the profane interaction with Kayn's Q and kept nerfing him, the champion just didn't feel the same anymore to me, so i dropped

Now they're doing the same thing to the only OTP I have left. They're trying to push this "hyperscaling champion" fantasy, but i honestly don't think that fantasy can exist with Bel'Veth's current kit. They would have to rework her almost entirely for that to make sense.

I just wish Riot had put more effort into the changes instead of taking the easy route. There were so many more interesting ways to make her scale into late game. Imagine if her E had an execute (like smolder), or if her ultimate gave her some kind of damage reduction during fights or when u cast it. At least then she'd actually have the tools to function as the late-game carry they're trying to turn her into. Instead, they are trying as much as possible to force this ''fantasy'' that doesn't exist, instead of actually trying fixing the problems that make the late game so bad for her

Once late game comes, she'll still get deleted by pretty much anything. She'll probably need even more gold and time to become relevant, only to die the second she gets hit by a single cc. With how much burst and cc there is in the game nowadays, it doesn't really matter how much she "scales", you can give her 1 bilion AS, she's still gonna get oneshot on her first cc on that late game fantasy that they are trying to introduce. On top of that, her teamfighting is still going to be awful, so i really don't see how these changes solve any of her actual issues.

So... I honestly don't know. I don't really enjoy any other junglers besides Kayn and Bel'Veth, which is why I'm asking for suggestions. In my opinion, once the July 29th patch appears, Bel'Veth is just going to become unplayable in higher elos, and her pickrate will drop even more than the 1% that is currently

It's honestly pretty sad to see. I've invested so much time into this champion over the years, and it feels like Riot is forcing her into an fantasy that just doesn't exist based on her kit.

Q damage is going to be 15-35 to 12-20
Q bonus dmg against monster reduced form 80 to 70
R on hit base damage changed form 1-9 to 2-6

Ty to u/kay-haru for actually doing the work.